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Thursday, May 28, 2026

St. John of the Cross and the Blessed Virgin Mary

 

St. John of the Cross and the Blessed Virgin Mary..

St. John of the Cross makes few explicit references to the Blessed Virgin Mary in his writings, yet it could be said that all of his work is profoundly Marian. In this episode, we explore the role of Mary in his life, spirituality, and writings. Preorder our new book Flos Carmeli: A Guide to Marian Consecration Through the Brown Scapular: https://www.icspublications.org/produ... 

 


 TRANSCRIPTION

 

   

This is what we're called to the heights of the spiritual life. The grace that Mary has been given, we are called to
6 seconds
participate in. Not at the moment of our conception like our lady, but through grace. We are called to to share in the grace of the immaculate conception.
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Praise be Jesus Christ. and welcome to another episode of Carmelcast.
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Carmelcast is a production of the Institute of Carmelite Studies Publications. For more information, you can visit our website at icpublications.org.
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We're back in this season where we're talking about our lady and her role in in Carmelite spirituality. I'm very happy to be joined today by Father
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Steven Payne, uh, professor at, uh, Catholic University of America and Carmelaite scholar. So very glad to have you with us, father.
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Thank you for inviting me.
1 minute
Yes. Well, today um I wanted to talk about St. John of the Cross and our lady. Um it's an interesting topic I
1 minute, 8 seconds
think because if you look through uh John's writing, you don't find a work devoted to Mary. You don't find many
1 minute, 15 seconds
references to Mary. And yet um some would argue perhaps even one of us maybe
1 minute, 21 seconds
would argue that he is a a um very very strong Marian saint. In fact uh here's a
1 minute, 29 seconds
I'll just maybe start start us out with a quotation and then we can kind of jump into things. This is a quotation from a frier from our our own province uh
1 minute, 38 seconds
father Emanuel Sullivan who was a a marologist and uh he wrote this. He said, "While the explicit references to
1 minute, 45 seconds
Mary are very few, all of John's writings are really centered on Mary, actually there is little about Mary that
1 minute, 53 seconds
John has left unsaid. His whole spiritual doctrine conveys an implicit marology.
2 minutes, 1 second
Um, so I don't know if you have any comments on that before we we kind of dive into John's life." Well, and I think that his point is in
2 minutes, 9 seconds
in that article is that uh um Mary exemplifies the teaching of John of the Cross in a very uh powerful way that
2 minutes, 17 seconds
everything he teaches about what we're called to become, we already see uh in Mary for us. Yes.
2 minutes, 25 seconds
So, yes, I think he's right that that it's there's implicitly Mary runs throughout John of the Cross's life and
2 minutes, 32 seconds
and teaching. In our last episode, um, Father Michael Joseph and, uh, brother Moses, they spoke about Teresa Vavala
2 minutes, 41 seconds
and and our lady, and they argued that Theresa Vavala is one of the most Marian saints. So, I think we have to outdo
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them and argue that maybe John of the Cross is the most Marian of saints. So, we'll see.
2 minutes, 54 seconds
We'll see. We'll see. Well, I think maybe the first place to start then is by looking at at John's life, his life story, because um I would say to read an
3 minutes, 4 seconds
implicit marology into John's writing would be imprudent unless we had like other evidence that kind of showed that this is how we should read John.
3 minutes, 14 seconds
Um and so maybe I we can just start with even before John like the just like the time period and the culture of Spain. I don't know if you have any thoughts on
3 minutes, 21 seconds
like what what was it like in that time when John was born? Well, I think of two things and probably you're going to address the other one also that uh the
3 minutes, 30 seconds
order he chose to join was very Marian, but Spain itself in the 16th century was ultraatholic and uh kind of at the time
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of the Protestant Reformation, it doubled down on all of the things that were distinctive about the Catholic faith when compared with Protestantism
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and and this intense devotion to Mary was part of that. And uh uh in Spain even before the reformation I mean
3 minutes, 54 seconds
there's there's shrines to Mary statues of Mary images of Mary everywhere um u Mary and shrines Marian pilgrimages
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Marian feasts and so on. So I think John was brought up in that millu. Now sometimes I think even by Catholic
4 minutes, 10 seconds
standards today we might say it was it could be overly effusive uh some of the devotions uh and John is even cautious
4 minutes, 18 seconds
about some of that but it's an intensely Marian spirituality in 16th century Catholic Spain I think and he grew up in that and absorbed it. Yeah.
4 minutes, 28 seconds
And so this is like the air that John's breathing then right when he's when he's born. For sure. Yeah.
4 minutes, 34 seconds
Yeah. And then you mentioned something else about uh the Carmelites in particular and and their kind of strong Marian devotion.
4 minutes, 40 seconds
Yeah. And I'm sure you've talked about this a lot in other episodes and so on, but right from the beginning, I mean,
4 minutes, 47 seconds
the rule tells them to to establish an oratory in the midst of their cells on Mount Carmel. This is around the year
4 minutes, 54 seconds
1200. And they choose Mary. And that sort of stamps them with this Marian character that they've chosen Mary as
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their special patron. And throughout the whole Middle Ages, all these traditions develop about the the order's close
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relationship with Mary. And they're known uh even officially as the brothers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel and that
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she's their protector. She's also their mother, but she's even their sister because she she since they're her
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brothers, she must be their sister. So, they're living a life uh similar to Mary's. and they'd look at the Mary in the Gospels and see images of the
5 minutes, 32 seconds
Carmelite life in how Mary's portrayed in in the Gospels. So yes, I mean I think when John is thinking about
5 minutes, 40 seconds
orders, you know, he this would if he has a Marian devotion, Carmel would be a natural choice for him.
5 minutes, 47 seconds
Yeah. Seen as like the the order of Mary at that time in particular. Um, it's interesting that I mean we don't know a lot about John's childhood, but it's it
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is interesting that several of the things we do know about his childhood are connected to to our mar to our lady kind of these stories that were passed
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down. Can you recount one of those maybe for us?
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Well, I can recount one maybe you can the the other. But, uh, when he was, I think, about four years old and they were still in Fontos, the town where he
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was born, apparently he and some other kids his own age, were playing by this muddy pond and they were throwing sticks
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into the water and then catching them when they came back up. And John fell into the pond and he he sunk down into
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the mud a bit. And he says he used to tell people later on that he saw this beautiful lady reaching out her hand to pull him out. But he didn't want to get
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her hand dirty because he had mud all over it. So he waited till another passer by a workman had a pole and and
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was able to pull him out of that. But he himself told that story as how Mary had protected him when he was very young.
6 minutes, 50 seconds
Yeah. And then just a few years after that when he was living in Medina delo again he's playing with his friends. It seems like he would have learned his
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lesson to stay away from water by this point, but uh they were playing and apparently there was a well with kind of a low wall around it and he got shoved
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and fell down into the well and his friends left him for dead. Um um but he was fine. He was un unscratched and came
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out and uh he again throughout his life he would recount that and attribute his um his safety to the intervention of our
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lady as you say. Um what does that say about John's clumsiness? But uh but he relied on Mary. Yeah. But he relied on Mary.
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Yes. Exactly. Um in fact, there's some some beautiful artwork of some of these incidents. Um this is from a a painting
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in a church in Mexico. And um this is actually a um a page of our our newest
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book that we published. It's called Flo Carmeli, a guide to Marian Consecration through the Brown Scapular. Um, and so we've opened up pre-orders um on that
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book, so you can order it today. But it's a just a um a way to to learn more about Mary and devotion and the
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Carmelite saints. And um it's designed kind of to be like a a sort of mini retreat. So you can pray along with some of the beautiful artwork that's
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contained in this book as well. Well, good. And then um we kind of hinted at this already, but there seems to to or
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at least there's speculation around like why is it that that John chose to become a Carmelaite and perhaps that Mary had played some role in that as well.
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Well, because he had been going to school to the Jesuits and so you might have thought he he did well in his studies apparently that he might have
8 minutes, 36 seconds
chosen to join the Jesuits, but he didn't. And we don't have any particular record about why he chose the Carmelites, but everyone assumes it was
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because of this devotion to Mary. They had a house there in Medina delo uh not so far from where he lived. But uh yeah,
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I think that that that must have played a role in his choice, right? And they say he even had offers to become a um a hospital chaplain too.
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So like he had his kind of options before him and yet he chose the Carmelites. And whereas today maybe someone would think they chose the
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Carmelites because of the the life of contemplative prayer. That was certainly present at his time too. But what seemed like was such a so distinct about the
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Carmelites at that time was that they were seen as as Mary's order. uh later on when he's uh gone through his studies
9 minutes, 23 seconds
and he's just been ordained a priest and he's saying his first mass in Medina delo and he meets Teresa and she's heard
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that he's thinking about transferring to the Carthusians and again John doesn't write about this so we don't know why exactly but the assumption is that he
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was looking for a more contemplative lifestyle than you know he'd been there in the busy city of uh Salamanca going
9 minutes, 47 seconds
to the university and everything and Teresa convinces them that it would be better for him to stay in his own order.
9 minutes, 53 seconds
Now, um how she worded that, that's about all she says in in the book of foundations, but sounds like maybe what
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she said to him was, "Look, you can stay in Mary's order and and get the life you you want if you join my reform," right?
10 minutes, 8 seconds
Uh so again it seems like that attraction to to Mary's order would have been part of his uh decision not to leave but to stay with the Carmelites.
10 minutes, 18 seconds
Yes. Right. Yeah. And then um you know just you know several years after that then John is has this experience where
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he's put in prison um in the monastery prison by his own Carmelite brothers who are um upset with him about this reform
10 minutes, 34 seconds
movement. And uh this is you know the famous time where John's in this prison for nine months and he writes some of his most beautiful poetry. Um and his
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poet the his poem on the the dark night is kind of the spiritual account of uh his escape from that prison cell. Um but
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even there we see then the role of our lady like leading leading John.
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Yes. Um maybe you should explain that better than than me because you've been more recently reading his biographical
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um accounts there. John didn't say a lot of this, you know, in his works, he doesn't write very autobiographically,
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so we don't always know, but we have in the processes of his canonization, we have so many witnesses who recount the things that John had said and done
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throughout his life. And this is one instance where there were 16 different witnesses who spoke about including the guard who was guarding him in that
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prison cell um recount the role that that our lady played in his um escape from from from the prison. So um one
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thing is you know this was all happening around the time of the assumption. Yeah.
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Um, and so John had he wanted to be able to celebrate mass on the the feast of the assumption, but was denied that opportunity because he was in the
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monastery prison. Um, and he had asked permission, you know, and they said he he wouldn't be allowed to. And so this was a great desire uh for him. And so it
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kind of spurred him along in fact to the his idea of escaping. Um and then John, they say that John throughout um his
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life, he would always look back and attribute, you know, every kind of every stage of this escape to our lady from
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the planning to the um his safety as he dropped out the window to his um getting over the the the wall of the monastery
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to his finding where he needed to go once he was outside. So um he just very clearly saw that it was our lady that was guiding him in all of this. Well,
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and as you were speaking about that too, I remember one of the poems he wrote in the prison was that the the romances what they call the romances which ends
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up in the final stanza with Mary there at at the birth of Christ and so on. Yes.
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Very beautiful description there. So yeah, and I might say more about this later, but there's a um um blessed uh
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Maria Jeene of the child Jesus. He writes something about um our lady being the light in the dark night. I think
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it's a very beautiful image of like here's John in in this prison cell in kind of the midst of this dark night and yet uh our lady would be kind of this
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glimmer of hope uh for him in the midst of that time. So um Marie Jeene writes very beautifully about it about how it she doesn't take away the suffering um
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but but she just h invites this like presence and this hope in the midst of darkness. I think it's a good reminder.
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Yeah. Are there other like accounts perhaps from John's life as we look ahead that that strike you?
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Um maybe some will come to mind as we continue talking. Uh but but those I think sort of show that she was uh important throughout his life.
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Um I'm sure that it shows up again probably in the accounts of his death too and the final moments. But uh
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yeah, he was dying as they approached midnight. Yeah. And it was about to be the the uh mattens uh the prayers for
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our lady. And so he was kind of awaiting this this time of saying he was going to go pray mattens in heaven. The the mattens of our lady in heaven.
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Um so once again we see uh our lady's presence there with him.
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Um so from kind of beginning to end of his life.
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I don't know there you probably recall this but there's a story as well about his brother um Francisco. Do you
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remember this is like after John died um our lady is said to have appeared to Francisco with John. He himself
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testifies to this idea of of he was kind of distraught at his brother's passing and this is something and he Francisco was a very devout man
14 minutes, 34 seconds
um and left behind kind of a lot of his accounts. Yeah.
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Um in writing and so this is one thing he recalled is that our lady appeared to him and and John was with our lady.
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That's on my to-do list of things to read. I haven't read those yet.
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Yes, I haven't either, but I've just read them through secondary sources. So, well, good. Yeah. And then there's other like little, you know, small things that
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we could point out from John's life, again, from accounts of of people who either traveled with John or knew John and his life. Um the fact that he would
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um you know, sing hymns to our lady as he traveled from place to place. He prayed the little office of the blessed virgin Mary. Um they speak about his the
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kind of fervorinos that he would give about about our lady the love that he had for Marian images. Um in fact there was the one you mentioned to me um
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earlier about that John maybe have had written something about.
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Yeah that's one of the works of John of the cross that has been referred to but it didn't survive if it was written. So
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they're not quite sure if he wrote it or not or was it incorporated into what he writes about images in in the sentiment
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caramel. We don't know. But yes, it was it, you know, he had enough interest in in that in Marian devotions to kind of
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treat that in a in a separate writing, it seems. Yeah.
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Yeah. No, that's good. No, I think that I think that kind of gives a good outline of John's life and his mar Mary Marian piety because uh like I said
15 minutes, 59 seconds
before, I think it would be imprudent perhaps to like read too much into John's writing if we didn't have all of this evidence of like no here's a man
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who it seems like every stage of his life, every decision of his life, our lady was playing a hand in that.
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Um and so maybe then let's turn if you're ready to we can look at John's works.
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Sure. um and and see what does he say about about Mary? Um so where where do you want to start?
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Um well I mean there there in in each of his major writings he has he has a reference to reference or two to Mary
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and even in the poems and the letters and so on there's there references when you look at the poems like we were saying there's the first uh uh uh uh
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there's a little poem called um uh is it pos actually we can read that maybe do you do you have that handy or
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yeah uh latria nav Navidida is called verbohada
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viada or the virgin wigh weighed with the word of god comes down the road if only
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you'll shelter her which I mean is I think a lot of people might be familiar with that that Christmas custom of kind of um people
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dressed as Mary and Joseph go from house to house looking to come in this called the pada and they keep getting turned away until finally they get to the to
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the last house which welcomes them and then there's a celebration. But I I think it's it's it's uh it's geared to
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something like that, but but also as a spiritual meeting. I mean that it's it's not just getting ready for a party, but if we welcome uh if if we welcome Mary,
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we're welcoming the word of God, right? Yeah. And that's a good point because even the text there, it um it says if you if you welcome her,
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right? Um, let me look it let me look it up. Make sure I'm quoting it correctly.
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Um, if only you'll shelter her. So, it's interesting. It doesn't say shelter them. Yeah.
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Um, but like you said, there can be a spiritual understanding then of if you if you welcome our lady, then you're welcoming the word. You're welcoming God
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himself. And I I mean um as we'll see I think when we get into some of the more important u references to Mary that uh
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um he sees Mary and Jesus together all the time. Mary and Christ that when you when you uh that Mary in devotion is also pointing toward Jesus all the time.
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There's um the prayer of a soul taken in love where um John is is I mean it's a
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beautiful uh prayer again where he's saying you know the heavens are mine the earth is mine and so on the mother of God is mine because Christ is mine and
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all for me. So again, it's it's that relationship between, you know, when we when we have Christ and Mary Mary is part of all of that too and she she
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brings Christ to us and and uh uh so again he's seeing Mary and Christ together. Yes. Yeah.
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And anyway, it's a beautiful prayer.
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Um and I've often been struck by I mean it may seem kind of inconsequential, but often he begins his letters with Jesus be in your soul. Jesus be in your soul.
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But then sometimes it's Jesus and Mary be in your soul. And I again it's an indication that that Mary's not separated from her son I think in in
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John's view. But the mo I think the most important passage is the um um is from
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chapter book three of the ascent of Mount Carmel chapter 2 uh paragraph 10.
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Um and again I'll just read one sentence of there. He's saying he's talking about purification of the memory. And you you know this very well and uh what happens
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when you when your memory is purified by the Holy Spirit and the grace of God and so on. And he says such was the prayer and work of our lady, the most glorious
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virgin raised from the beginning to this high state. So you got immaculate conception there that this wasn't just something that came with the
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enunciation. Um raised from the beginning to this high state of of union with God. She never had the form of any
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creature impressed in her soul, nor was she moved by any, for she was always moved by the Holy Spirit. Um, now I
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don't know, you may want to explain a bit more of what exactly he means there.
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It's not like her mind was a blank all the time. I mean, I'm sure she had wonderful memories of her son and and Nazareth and so on. Um, but that they
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didn't control her or or imprison her the way that our memories often do, right?
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Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, I think there's a few like really important and this is this is kind of the passage it seems like that a lot of the Carmelite marologists point to when it comes to to
20 minutes, 42 seconds
John understanding John on the cross and our lady. But um like you said, the one thing is he he does he references there the immaculate conception
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um which would have been um maybe not as common at his time. I don't know if you want to say any more about
20 minutes, 58 seconds
about that. Well, no, because I mean as you as you say, I mean, there were disagreements among the schools of theology about that. Did that mean if
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Mary was immaculately conceived that then Christ didn't have any salvific role for her and that would be a problem? But I mean, the the when the
21 minutes, 14 seconds
church figured all of this out, they said, "No, it was in in view of the uh of, you know, of the of the future
21 minutes, 21 seconds
merits of Christ that she was preserved from the beginning in order for for this to to be possible." Some great theologians were
21 minutes, 29 seconds
Thomas Aquinus had those same doubts about the about how how this could work if you but yeah
21 minutes, 36 seconds
but John's pretty bold there at least in in this in state and like like medieval Carmelites too the medieval Carmelites were great defenders of the immaculate conception even if some of the Dominicans were not.
21 minutes, 46 seconds
So yes. Yeah.
21 minutes, 48 seconds
Yeah. So, so that's, you know, something interesting about that passage, but also Yeah. Just like you, like you said, what he's saying is um pretty significant
21 minutes, 58 seconds
there. I mean, he's saying that that our lady is um always moved by the Holy
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Spirit. And this is kind of John's, I guess, his understanding of of the highest states of the spiritual life of what he would call like participation in
22 minutes, 14 seconds
God. um where it's it's um it's I I kind of always envision an almost like a a
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dance right between the soul and and God where they're moving perfectly in in tandem with each other and um so such
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that our own actions, our own thoughts, our own prayers, our own um everything
22 minutes, 37 seconds
is is just kind of absorbed in God and becomes divine by participating in him.
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Yeah, I know. Because sometimes it can sound like um do we become auton automatons or you know kind of puppets
22 minutes, 50 seconds
of God that we don't have any will of our own anymore. Yes.
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But uh I mean in John's understanding of our human nature. We're made for uh union with God that uh our will is meant
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to be in harmony with his and that's uh the fulfillment of what we were created to be. So it's not like we become less human. We become more human. We become
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what God wanted. and uh we're always responsive to to God's will. And as you say, it's that kind of dance um that uh
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where there where we're always moving in harmony with what God wants and there's not that inner struggle, right? That uh Yeah.
23 minutes, 25 seconds
Yeah. And I think having this here together with his reference to the immaculate conception is important because it helps to show his
23 minutes, 32 seconds
understanding of the immaculate conception. I think too often we can look at the graces of our lady such as the immaculate conception and say, "Well, that's she had this special
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grace. She was given that I'm I wasn't." Yeah.
23 minutes, 44 seconds
Um but here in this same this same paragraph like John is speaking of, no, this is the what we're called to the heights of the spiritual life. And so it's the grace that Mary has been given.
23 minutes, 55 seconds
Um we are we are called to participate in um again not at the moment of our
24 minutes, 2 seconds
conception like our lady but throughout like through grace we are called to to share in the grace of the immaculate conception and that's like what makes it
24 minutes, 10 seconds
so amazing. If it was just something for her um historically then it wouldn't be that that significant but we we get to be a part of it. I think that's in line
24 minutes, 19 seconds
too with what Vatican 2 says about Mary that I mean we we think of sometimes of these privileges of Mary as separating us from her in some way, but actually
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they're showing us kind of what we're called to as well except that we get there gradually and she had it from the mo first moment of conception, but it's
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it's uh it's it's our ideal really. It's it's what we were made for as well. Yes.
24 minutes, 42 seconds
Yeah. Very good. Um, and maybe I mean this is maybe a good jump off point then to talk about one of the other references, the one from the the spiritual canacle.
24 minutes, 52 seconds
Um, because it is connected to the one that we just read, right, where um he's talking about how um such was the prayer
25 minutes
and work of our lady. Um, that's what he says in the one in the ascent of Mount Carmel.
25 minutes, 5 seconds
Um, but talking about her prayer in particular and what that looks like. Um, again, I think that kind of ties us into
25 minutes, 12 seconds
to the reference from the spiritual canacle. I don't know if can you give us some context for for that reference.
25 minutes, 18 seconds
Um, he's talking about the the soul is the is the lover seeking her beloved who is who's the Lord. Um, in the stanza
25 minutes, 26 seconds
he's commenting on, you know, tell him that I sick and suffer and die and so on. So, I'm I you know, tell let let the Lord know that I'm I'm yearning for this
25 minutes, 33 seconds
union. But he he says when the blessed virgin spoke to her beloved son at the wedding feast at Canaa in Galilee, she did not directly ask for the wine but
25 minutes, 42 seconds
merely remarked they have no wine. There are three reasons for this. First, the Lord knows what is suitable for us better than we do. Second, the beloved
25 minutes, 51 seconds
has more compassion when he beholds the need and resignation of a soul that loves him. And third, the soul is better
25 minutes, 58 seconds
safeguarded against self-love and possessiveness by indicating its lack rather than asking for what in its
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opinion is wanting. So, I mean, that's what he he's admiring here about Mary's prayer is that she she lets the Lord know what the issue is, but she leaves
26 minutes, 14 seconds
it in his hands how he's going to to take care of things. So, right. Yeah. So in in tying this then with the the verse in the ascent to uh
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the the reference in the ascent, we see how um John is kind of telling us that this is um perhaps the the heights of prayer.
26 minutes, 32 seconds
Yeah.
26 minutes, 32 seconds
Um the way that we we ought to pray. I mean not that we don't ask for things.
26 minutes, 36 seconds
We we certainly can and that's not a bad thing. But there's a certain um dispossession or dispossessiveness
26 minutes, 44 seconds
in the way that we ask for for things from God because it's it's ultimately a trust that God knows better than we do what is for our good. Yeah. And that's
26 minutes, 53 seconds
that's how I understand it too that um I mean the problem that we have maybe I have and so on is that when I ask for
27 minutes, 1 second
something I you know it's got to be answered in one particular way or I don't think I've been heard or I don't think it's been answered.
27 minutes, 8 seconds
Whereas with Mary and so on she's she's saying here's the issue. There's no wine.
27 minutes, 13 seconds
Yeah. And now you know but I leave it to you now how you're going to solve it and that that would be a good approach in our own prayer as you say. I mean, the
27 minutes, 21 seconds
Bible is full of of people asking for very specific things, but then not to feel like you haven't been heard because it doesn't turn out exactly the way you
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ask for it, but to realize that God is free to to to respond in the way God wants.
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Yes. Yeah. And I think I mean the great image for that is our lady at the foot of the cross.
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Yeah. um standing as this woman of faith because she sees uh you know her son being being
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executed and um you know certainly she she didn't want that to happen. Um and yet she somehow is trusting that like
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God has a plan here. He knows better than I do what is is for my good, what is for the good of the world and the salvation of the world. And so she can
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trust that um even in the darkest of times that he has a plan. Yeah. So I think I mean John would certainly not
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disagree that we should put our whole heart and soul into our prayer. You know that's and I mean we have this immense
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yearning for for God and for for what we need and so on but yet to be as you say kind of dispossessed or or detached from
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um how you know leaving the Lord the freedom to respond in the way he wants.
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Yes. Yeah. I think often um we can we can pray for the for God to take away the the very thing that is for our salvation.
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Yeah.
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So like we're praying for God to to take away that annoying coworker or that annoying brother that I live with. Um and
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and here I am here you are. But but he knows better what's what's for my salvation. and and maybe the struggle in that or even if
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it's in the midst of a temptation like maybe the the struggle in the midst of that is the very thing that I need. Yeah.
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And so I don't have to um I don't have to tell God what to do.
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I can again point out like this is this is bothering me. I'm struggling with this. Um but like John points out here
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um there there should be a sort of I don't know how to describe like dispossessiveness I guess in in the way that we ask for things from God. And Mary is the example of that for John.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, there are a couple other short quotes of John like in in um stanza 20 paragraph 11 of the canacle, he he talks
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about how those who've reached a certain stage of union with God, they don't suffer in the same way that those who haven't reached that point suffer. But
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he says yet sometimes God will allow them to suffer as he did with Mary uh and and St. Paul and so on. Um, again,
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that's a little bit tricky to interpret, I think, but it's just to say that yes, he he's aware that just because Mary's heart and soul and her entire being was
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united with God doesn't mean that she didn't suffer. I mean, we I mean, he's he's well aware of the of the sorrows of Mary and the suffering of Mary and and
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how that is uh for our good as well. I mean, that that we get blessings from that. And that's a good good corrective perhaps because I think often we think
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if if only I were holier or united to God then I wouldn't experience trouble or pain in my life. And all we have to do is look at our lady and see that that's that's not the case.
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And then too in the in the in the living flame stanza 3 paragraph 12 he has a kind of a really brief reflection. He's
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he's uh commenting on the the the verse about the shadows and so on. And he says, "For when a person is covered by a shadow, it's a sign that someone else is
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nearby to protect and favor. As a result, the angel Gabriel called the conception of the son of God. That fa
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that favor granted to the Virgin Mary an overshadowing of the Holy Spirit." So u uh again, I think he's connecting Mary
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with the Holy Spirit. And that's that's another thing perhaps we haven't said enough, but I think in John, Mary and the Holy Spirit really are very closely connected too. Yeah.
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Right. Yeah.
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Which is a good theme as we're getting close to Pentecost. So, Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting to me how when we take kind of all of these
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references together um I think we see um exactly what that that quote I read
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at the beginning is saying is that um uh from from father Emanuel Sullivan is that um is it not only that it's not
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that John has few references to our lady I mean that's true few explicit references but really um he sees our
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lady not even as the model but like the the reality of the perfect soul that is united to God. And the goal of all of
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his works is to to lead us to that place. And so in that sense, you can find our lady really on every page of of
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John's works when you read it through that through those eyes.
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And I think there's there are a lot of of traditional Christian themes that John doesn't dwell on because he just takes it for granted that you'll
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understand that that's in the background. like he doesn't talk a lot about the sacraments but the Eucharist is there in you know throughout and and
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other other themes like that given his audience given that his readers would have known his first readers would have known well okay
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here's Mary what he's talking about yes I had always read that about uh John's writing like this idea that you
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could find Mary you know implicitly throughout but I think I was a little skeptical about that until I I read this book um Mary the Perfect contemplative
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by Barbara Hughes. Um, and in it she kind of goes through and unpacks some of John's writing and shows very clearly
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what we're talking about here. How um the the the soul united to God. That's the reality of our lady and that's the reality that we are called to share in.
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Um again, not just as a model, I think, um but as something we're called to participate in through the grace of our lady, through the immaculate conception
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and the graces given to her and the same Holy Spirit working in us as it did in her. Yeah. Exactly. Yes.
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Well, good. Well, maybe to conclude then we could turn to one last um of the references of of John of the Cross to our lady, and that's in in the romances.
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Um could you just tell us like generally what that work is about?
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Well, interestingly, it's one that he wrote while he was in prison, as far as they know. And and, uh, uh, what's fascinating about it is he makes no
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reference to the fact that he's there in prison. You wouldn't know that from reading the poem. And yet it's it's it's this beautiful cosmic vision of the
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whole purpose of creation that it starts with the trinity having a dialogue in heaven and the father and the son are talking about uh uh you know the father
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wants uh the son to have a bride and he creates the whole universe to be the bride of Christ and and the son in
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gratitude says I'll go and and embrace my bride and bring her to you and uh and then it follows through the salvation
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history and so on and uh comes comes down to uh to the incarnation and that's where it ends with the birth
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of Christ. And yeah, it's it's kind of a almost a commentary on the prologue to John's gospel, right? In fact, that's the title, I think.
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Yeah. What's striking to me about this is uh he's kind of leading to this the incarnation and um often in theology you
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would see arguments about like the fall and sin and that's this reason for the um the coming of Christ, right, to save
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us. And yet John's giving a slightly different perspective. It's it's that from the beginning in in the um within
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the the Trinity there was this this plan to like draw the the creation was this bride to to be like drawn to God um from
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from the beginning. And so there's just a different a different angle perhaps to approach even the reason for the incarnation.
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Yes. because he doesn't mention the fall. You know, it's as if the creation would would have happened and and Christ
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would have come and become incarnate regardless because that was the whole purpose for which the universe was made. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
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Yeah. And it kind of contextualizes to all of creation as this like divine love story that we are all a part of. Like
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our soul is is participating in this love story that's drawing us to to God.
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And it's interesting because so many other places almost exclusively in John's writings the bride is the individual soul but here it's the whole
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of creation and so it gives it that that cosmic perspective. Yeah.
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Right. Yes. Yeah. Well like you said it kind of is leading up to the incarnation and it's in those kind of latter um uh
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passages. So it's broken up into like uh nine different I don't know if you want to call them they're not really stanzas.
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I guess stanzas. um the poem is and the last two is really when we see the the well the incarnation at work but also
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the the role of our lady. Maybe we'll finish by reading part of the ninth one, but I wanted to point out something perhaps in the eighth one first and
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maybe see if you have some some thoughts as well. Um so this is when u speaking of the enunciation right when the angel
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Gabriel comes to to Mary. And so I'll just read this the first part of this maybe. It says, "Then he called the archangel Gabriel
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and sent him to the Virgin Mary at whose consent the mystery was wrought." There's a an interesting article by uh
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father Otilio uh great cralites scholar and and translator and um he writes particularly about this this
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stanza and what is striking about this what's very unique about this is that typically we hear about the enunciation
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being an angel is sent in order to tell something to Mary to tell her that this is going to take place and yet here it's
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almost the opposite the angel is And why not to tell Mary something but to get something from Mary which is her consent.
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Right? So we see here something about the role that our lady is playing and I think it's a little more striking even in the Spanish. Often in
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translations we have prepositions that are are somewhat hard to translate and here um it's translated at at whose
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consent. at whose consent. Um but the preposition there in Spanish is is day.
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Um which can also be translated as from or by.
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So so from her whose consent or by whose consent the mystery was wrought. And so it gives our lady I think a very active
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role in this this process. It's not just the angel's coming so she can say okay you can do it to me
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but but she's playing this this role in um bringing about the incarnation a very active role and I think again that says
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something about the role that we play um in our participation with God. So earlier you'd mentioned we're not it can sound like we're just becoming these
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sort of robots that is like God just forces us and works us.
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Um but but this gives a very different perspective that somehow we we are um are are are participating in God and and
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our action becomes divine. It's very much our action.
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Yeah. And our consent to Exactly. I don't know, maybe I can ask you then before we go to the last stanza is um I I don't not to put you on the
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spot, but if you could kind of summarize what you would see or like maybe some key points of like if we were going to
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talk about a marology of John of the cross. So like you know we talked like throughout this episode about a lot of particulars. Um but is there anything
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that like strikes you as like what is it that kind of sums up maybe what what John says to us about our lady? Well,
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obviously she's exemplifying, as we said at the beginning, his whole teaching of what it is we're called to. And so we
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can see her as a kind of a mirror. Um, but not just, as you said, not just an example, but she's also an intercessor
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for us. I mean, as a Carmelite, he's going to see that very strongly, too.
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That she she can guide us, she can help us. um and uh um that she's the pattern
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for what we're aspiring to because she shows how what it means to live a life that's totally responsive to to God. Uh
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and but in a way without losing her individuality, without losing her her uh uh her her freedom or anything like
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that. In fact, it's it becomes she becomes freer in that total self- gift to to God. And that's what we're all called to. Mh.
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Um, and I'm sure there are many things I'm forgetting there, but that's u some of what I would see in in John's teaching on Mary. Great. Yeah.
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Yeah, that's beautiful.
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Um, well, maybe then we can turn to the to the last stanza here. And I don't know, maybe it just be good to even just end by we could just read part of it if you think unless you have something you
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wanted to comment on, but it would No, I actually I I kept when I've read it in the past, I always feel like I I
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wish he continued because it sort of abruptly ends. Yes. Uh but uh but yes it would be fine to to read it I think.
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Okay. Well do you want to just maybe we conclude with you if you do you mind reading that stand?
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Oh no that's fine. So this is part nine which has a heading called the birth. Uh when the time had come for him to be
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born which is Christ of course. He went forth like the bridegroom from his bridal chamber, embracing his bride,
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holding her in his arms, whom the gracious mother laid in a manger among some animals that were there at the
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time. Men sang songs and angels melodies, celebrating the marriage of two such as these. But God there in the
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manger cried and moaned. And these tears were jewels the bride brought to the wedding. The mother gazed in sheer
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wonder on such an exchange. In God, man's weeping and in man gladness. To
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the one and the other things usually so strange.
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Yeah. It reminds me of the the prayer that the priest says when he takes the the the water and pour during the holy
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sacrifice of the mass and uh puts the drop of water into the chalice mixing it with with the wine.
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By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.
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Right. Yeah. So here we have at the incarnation this kind of mixing this intermingling of um like like John says so beautifully
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the two things that usually are so opposed the um um humanity and divinity the the tears of God and then this like the joy
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of of uh the blessed virgin Mary. And I think it's it can be a little bit confusing in this final section because
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you've got several um uh images um mingling at the same time. You've got this marriage image of the of the uh
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bride and the bridegroom and you've got this birth imagery and so on and and the the tears and and and joy and so on. Um
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but the point is that in in at in the birth of Christ, this is kind of the fulfillment of what we saw at the beginning of the poem where the father
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wants to give the son uh this bride and he's he's joined himself to the bride now and to bring it back to the father. Yes.
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And uh and so that's why I say, you know, if the if the poem had continued on, he could have gone on through how how that uh was lived out through the
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whole public life of Jesus and so on. Um but yes, so but so you have that the Mary Mary is there seeing this union of
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the of the uh the bride and the bridegroom now in the incarnation. So yeah, and she's somehow participating in in the joy of it through um
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through her her presence and and through her consent. Yeah.
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Well, great. Well, anything else you wanted to No, thank you for inviting me to be part of this and I think it's an important
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topic and uh uh one that's particularly during this year on St.
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John of the Cross is is worth spending time on. I hope that people will find it helpful.
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Good. All right. Well, thank you, Father Steven. Um thank you for joining us for this episode and we'll see you again next week. God bless you.

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