Bleck Madonna

Sunday, January 23, 2022

Sacred Silence in Sufism and the Vedanta

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91,965 views
May 27, 2013

           hello to everybody out there hello hello
00:03
how are you all everybody doing all
00:05
right well that's good to hear and thank
00:09
you so much for coming to this
00:10
afternoon's session welcome to the 2013
00:15
festival of faiths with the title you
00:18
know sacred silence pathway to
00:20
compassion we are so pleased
00:23
I can hardly I mean it's just hard to
00:24
believe the whole thing is really like a
00:26
dream that we have had program after
00:29
program of the most inspiring kinds of
00:33
sessions I don't even want to call them
00:35
talks because they've just been these
00:37
experiences that have been deeply
00:41
helpful as a word that I think of and
00:43
and very profound on many levels so
00:46
thank you all for being a part of it and
00:49
of course thanks so much to our speakers
00:52
our distinguished speakers who have
00:54
really come from all over the world to
00:56
be here right here in Louisville
00:58
Kentucky which feels somehow all very
01:01
natural and appropriate and just right
01:04
but a huge thanks to them for coming
01:08
this long way and many of you in the
01:09
audience have come from far far away
01:12
including my dear mother-in-law has just
01:14
arrived from Argentina and and other
01:16
Argentines and it's just in swedes and
01:19
one from hong kong coming so anyway it's
01:22
just fabulous to be with you all as you
01:26
know to put on an event like this
01:27
requires a lot of help and it would just
01:30
be impossible not to thank those that
01:32
are so involved including our office led
01:35
by dr. Kathleen Lyons and Sarah Reed
01:39
Harris and Chris Wooten we've also
01:41
received huge support from the community
01:44
at large as many of you know this
01:48
particular festival is being put on at
01:50
the request of the mayor who was with us
01:52
this morning and has been with us for
01:54
many of the sessions and has his own
01:56
session coming up on well tomorrow night
01:59
actually and and all of it is is
02:03
completely connected in as much as his
02:06
session is very much inspired by all of
02:10
the sessions that have happened thus far
02:11
so please come to
02:13
tomorrow night if you can and for any of
02:14
the other sessions we have ahead of us
02:17
all of which are listed in our program
02:20
we have also received big support and
02:23
it's just quick quick for us to mention
02:25
brown-forman corporation the Archdiocese
02:29
of Louisville the earth and spirit
02:31
center the Muhammad Ali center
02:32
Louisville public media drape and go
02:36
Hmong Institute which is the host
02:37
organization for the Dalai Lama visit
02:39
which is starting Sunday afternoon
02:40
Thomas Merton center founds Vita Thank
02:43
You grey compassionate Louisville which
02:46
is having its own series of events going
02:48
on right now parallel to these which is
02:51
also very exciting the idea festival
02:53
fowl Jones and the whiskey row lofts and
02:55
also Christy Brown lastly I'll just
02:59
mention a well two things one is there
03:02
is a flyer that I have been I think
03:05
inaccurately attributing to one single
03:08
individual it turns out not surprisingly
03:10
that this great flyer is is the work of
03:13
a whole lot of individuals and there's a
03:15
note that I haven't quite I don't have
03:17
on me to reference exactly who but if
03:19
you're among us you know how great a
03:21
gift it is that you've given us which is
03:23
a sheet talking about meditation
03:25
opportunities and contemplative
03:27
practices in Louisville and it's listed
03:30
in in various ways including by way of
03:33
traditions Buddhist Christian
03:35
inter-religious non-denominational and
03:38
they're out in the hall along with all
03:40
the other goodies please take one of
03:42
these if it's of interest to you
03:44
lastly I'll just talk about the forum
03:46
we're going to before we introduce our
03:48
speakers which gray will do we will
03:51
after you introduce the speakers I will
03:54
be the timekeeper for a session of
03:58
silence and then Rajeev I think you've
04:00
agreed at the end too and I'll place the
04:03
the gong and so maybe when you hear the
04:07
gong you can all help me in welcoming
04:10
our guest to the stage at the end of the
04:13
silent session that we'll start with now
04:15
and for those of you who don't know I am
04:18
honored to introduce to you my co
04:19
programmer and dear friend gray Henry
04:29
we're very very very fortunate to have
04:32
doctors say to st. Nasser with us this
04:35
afternoon
04:36
I mean he's we've tried for so many
04:38
years to have him back he came when we
04:40
did the Merton and sufism Congress many
04:43
years ago he was one of our major
04:45
speakers but the monks at Gethsemane the
04:47
Cathedral Heritage Foundation we've been
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trying to bring him back to his Kentucky
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home for a long time
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beginning in Iran where he headed the
04:57
Imperial Academy of philosophy and
04:59
science having studied at Harvard he
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then finally returned to America where
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he teaches at George Washington
05:05
University he's one of the greatest
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scholars of islamic spirituality and
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islam in general in the world today and
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we are supremely grateful to have his
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company also today we have we have swami
05:21
but from Aruba nan de I pronounced it
05:24
correctly who's come all the way from
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Calcutta where he resides in a monastery
05:29
devoted to Ramakrishna he's discovered
05:35
that Vedanta tradition of Hinduism as a
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student in Sweden and joined the
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Ramakrishna order at the age of 19 and
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later spent many years in India engaged
05:45
in monastic scholarly and spiritual
05:47
training where he lives today he's a
05:50
founding member of the spiritual
05:51
alliance convened by the Global Peace
05:53
Initiative for women and a participant
05:56
in its ongoing Sufi Yogi and Hindu
05:59
Buddhist dialogues also we will have on
06:04
stage with us the moderator Rajiv Mehra
06:07
I am forgetting how to pronounce your
06:09
name Rajiv let me give it a try
06:13
mmm mater atre um my goodness let's just
06:21
say he is a disciple of His Holiness the
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Dalai Lama and when the Dalai Lama
06:26
received his Nobel Prize funds he gave
06:30
them to Rajiv to set up the institute
06:32
for human responsibility Rajiv is also a
06:34
filmmaker and they
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head of an incredible filmmaking
06:38
situation in Delhi where he makes
06:41
programmes and interview some of the
06:44
greatest spiritual masters alive and not
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alive and we are very fortunate to have
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him as a moderator today
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thank you very much
06:53
[Applause]
11:09
please join me in welcoming our speakers
11:12
to the stage
11:14
[Applause]
11:57
could I in like Swami atmospheric
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remember to speak not necessarily
12:27
in the name of God the one some Darkman
12:30
Rahim I begin with the traditional
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Muslim prayer for the opening of all
12:35
things the prayer that precisely
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emanates from the silent one and returns
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unto Him apparently we're going to each
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speak about 40 minutes after which we'll
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have a discourse with each other and
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then there'll be questions and answers
12:52
also from the audience the few words
12:56
that I shall say are based on the
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Islamic perspective and with Islam being
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perspective on Sufism they're not
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personal ruminations there based on a
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long tradition of understanding the
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relation between silence and compassion
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which is based on the analysis of the
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levels of the self of who we are and
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where we come from and where we're going
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I want to first of all make clear there
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are some things I have to make clear
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there's been too much discussion in many
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circles in the West about the say
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Christianity and Sufism Buddhism and
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Sufism and so forth this is not correct
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but Sufism is a aspect of Islam it's
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like saying a comparison between Islam
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on Trappist monks Travis monks are part
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of Catholicism Catholicism part of
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Christianity and Sufism
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is the inner spiritual contemplative
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dimension of the Islamic religion and
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same for the Vedanta as everybody loved
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what Dante nobody loves to study the
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laws of Manu but Vedanta is part of
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Hinduism and to do it justice one has to
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understand in the context of the great
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tradition that Hinduism is that's not my
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responsibility to discuss the other one
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is as far as these two perspectives are
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concerned which is the subject of this
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afternoon's session that is Sufism of
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the Vedanta it sure presents the
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interior as a CEREC dimension of the two
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great religions
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met side by side in the South kind of
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India from the seventh eighth Christian
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century onward that is Hinduism and
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Islam and it's ruined the centuries that
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followed was a remarkable prosity of
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presence of discourse of exchange
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between the highest representatives of
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the two traditions no one has as yet
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written fully about the interaction
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between the Vedanta and Sufism over the
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centuries but just to give you one small
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example the West would not have known
15:17
about the Vedanta and Upanishads had it
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not been for the translation of
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Upanishads by a Sufi who was also Prince
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Dhara shoku into Persia and was this
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translation I was Lester translating to
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Latin by Uncle to Tokyo and presented to
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Napoleon 1804 and found its way to
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Europe and it started all the interest
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in Hinduism a very very few people know
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that as a remark this is a remarkable
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chapter of the spiritual history of
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humanity they exchanged between Sufism
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and the Vedanta of course that's not
15:51
going to be the subject for my brief
15:52
discourse it's a long long story but I
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thought you should at least know about
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it for centuries great sages have sat
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from different to the two traditions and
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carried a discourse together but since
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the subject of this conference was
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silence now I'm forced to tell you a
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personal account I hardly ever do so
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when I give a lecture but I shall do so
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now in 1973 I went to Madras where the
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International Congress of philosophy was
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being held in India I was to give a
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major philosophical address but I know
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that the greatest living authority of
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the Vedanta the Shankar Acharya of
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Kanchipuram the old Shankar Acharya was
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living in country near Madras so I asked
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for some Mahadevan the great Indian
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philosopher was a disciple to arrange
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for me to see him and he accepted he
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arranged for me to go and see him and I
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went to a garden about 50
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two kilometers away from Madras and I
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was wearing completed as a traditional
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Slavic dress and they put in this
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beautiful garden on a Persian carpet and
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a sat cross-legged waiting for some time
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and after a while the Shankaracharya I
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came in but the staff in the sound of a
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sannyasin which never was put on the
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ground with two eyes that were more
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brilliant than the Sun and of course I
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being a Malaya not being Hindu we could
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not come close to me and I respect that
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of course very much among traditional or
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the last person and I'm not a 19th
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century modernist and in any form
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whatsoever I respected that very much I
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was not offended was very happy but he
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came close as he could and he sat down
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like the Hindu said do without his back
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touching the ground but just sitting on
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the ground which most Westerners could
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not do for more than 30 seconds without
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falling down the ground or hurting their
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knees don't try it but they can sit for
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hours doing this he said like this and a
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man came from him and he said his
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Shankara is observing the fast of
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silence he will only speak to you in
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silence so for about eight minutes eight
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minutes he and I just looked into each
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other's eyes I've had many many
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religious discourses with the Pope's and
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bishops and rabbis and great Buddhist
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Zen masters you name it 50 years I've
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been doing this this was perhaps the
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most profound religious discourse I'd
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ever experienced after the administer
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over he made some sign language the
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person and the person came to me and
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said the Shankara is so happy that the
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deepest truths of the Vedanta are
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confirmed by the deepest truth of Sufism
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and that that is what silence really
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means but on that level to practice
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silence is not an easy thing and if I
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can maybe a little bit critical of
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ourselves I must mention that to talk
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about silence in relation to
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spirituality because must not only think
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about sound you must think of the
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clutter that goes on inside us both the
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power of the mind
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that is concepts that come one after
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another on the power of images in our
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imaginal faculty there are two different
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noise systems within us one is images
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that come and go and what his thoughts
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that come and go we have no control over
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them and you have to be a great Saint to
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be able to quiet them down all of the
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techniques and methods of all religions
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have further ultimate and I mean
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spiritual techniques to bring about this
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inner silence silence does not only mean
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not speaking out that's only a small
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part of this this inner silence which is
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so difficult to attain now this is the
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supreme goal of both Sufism and the
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Vedanta obviously if there's to be a
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comparison between the two and I'm not
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going to make a more comparative
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statements except this usually of course
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in the Vedanta other people describe
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Brahman the supreme metaphysics is based
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on the pure subject admin the pure self
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so the absolute reality is envisioned in
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terms of the pure subject and in most
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Sufism absolute reality is envisaged as
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the pure object now the pure subject is
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ultimately nothing other than the pure
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object the purely transcendence is the
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purely imminent and metaphysically the
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same perhaps no other modern writer has
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made that as clear at the later field of
20:31
chuan who's buried a few miles from here
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or at one of the most incredible essays
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that were written in the European
20:37
languages on the relationship between
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Vedanta and Sylvia where he brings this
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issue out so it's not a difference of
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two different metaphysics different
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formulation of the same reality that is
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either we are attached to the altar and
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the diverges beyond ourselves or that
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was ultimately ourselves the deeper
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sense but both employ a be honest both
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employed be honest and in order to come
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to that and understand that we must
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understand the structure of the soul my
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dear for a great Henry who has done so
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much for the city and for the
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conference and she's not my sister and
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only person who can order me around in
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the world another person here because of
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her she asked me to speak about this
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question of the self and so I thought I
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would dovetailed my analysis of the
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relationship between silence and
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compassion to this question of the self
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okay that is the key that is the key to
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realize be honest if I can use such a
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term in English either
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are being completely beyond as other or
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completely beyond as sane and self an
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inward we have to understand what you
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have to go beyond why would you have to
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go beyond what is it we have to go
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beyond now we begin all of us all of us
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human beings have been given
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consciousness we begin with the self as
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inner reality experiential reality the
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most direct we are identify ourselves
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with this particular bundle of sphere of
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impressions thoughts and so forth which
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is myself and unfortunately in this
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stage of what the Hindu who called the
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Kali Yuga in this stage of the dark
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period of history especially we are
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almost born with complete imprisonment
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in this state of selfishness in the
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negative sense the sense of utter on but
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small self and most of us live through a
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life like that but the cosmic physically
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speaking the self is not a totally
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independent being there's always a crack
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in its wall somewhere there's always
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something beyond it
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that's why selfishness will not bring
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happiness ultimately because it is not
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ontologically independent metaphysically
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speaking it's not being completely
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independent unto itself no self can be
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happy by simply being itself no matter
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how it tries to satisfy the appetites
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which never end which is another sign of
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the fact that it has an echo of the
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infinite
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the fact that we as human beings are
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never happy with simply having more and
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more quantitatively in contrast to a
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horse who eats food and monsters is it
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food is happy
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well our appetizers are not satiated
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because suddenly of the infinite is
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reflected in our selves small self
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family of Atman is reflected in that
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self so this self is there and even for
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ordinary people we realize that
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sometimes when let's say if you have
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gained a few pounds is said or have to
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discipline myself who is being
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disciplined and who is disciplining so
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we already realized the famous saying of
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San Thomas Aquinas doors onto a nominee
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in Latin there are two within us there's
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not only one self there is more than one
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self and Sufism begins right here right
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here by pointing out that in fact we
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have many selves nafs in arabic nafs has
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many different meanings but one of them
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is this self ego and they're like
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sheaths there are like spheres
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concentric spheres one inside the other
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we begin with the nafs with the self
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with the ego then classical Arabic Azhar
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al maraa Basu that is which commands us
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to evil and what is evil but the
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privation of good have been limited in
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place of the unlimited and that's why
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were the wrong choices come from and
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therefore it is the ego which turns us
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away from the divine reality the ron
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arad is there it's the dark glass that
25:10
prevents the Sun from shining within our
25:13
being
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but as I said the first stage of
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perfection is the realization that this
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is not ready us so the first stage is a
25:22
higher attainment of the self which is
25:25
called enough Salah wama in Arabic which
25:28
means the blaming soul the soul that is
25:31
able to blame itself as soon as you say
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I blame myself for having said this
25:37
unkind word to my friend that I
25:40
in that sentence is not the same that
25:43
was blaming the friend saying the unkind
25:45
words it's an it's an hire I within us
25:48
that is able to blame itself that's the
25:51
first stage of spiritual profession of
25:54
going beyond the limitations of the
25:56
human substance the human ego the human
25:59
state is the realization of being able
26:03
to blame ourselves to see our own faults
26:06
and once we do that gradually be tried
26:11
to overcome these false now how this
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happens I'm not going to go into the
26:15
question God is not simply a
26:17
rationalistic ethics have we read a book
26:19
of ethics and correct ourselves the soul
26:22
cannot be corrected without the grace of
26:24
God and speaking Abrahamic terms without
26:26
religion without tradition and even in
26:29
Buddhism which does not have a theistic
26:30
view of the divine reality without the
26:33
compassion of the Buddha why otherwise
26:36
with the Buddhism without the Buddha but
26:38
there's no Buddhism without the Buddha
26:39
and certainly in Hinduism it's
26:41
emphasized as much as the Abrahamic
26:43
religion so the Meuse around Abrahamic
26:45
terms say our own most of the people he
26:47
remember having families we have I know
26:49
Hindus and Buddhists and so forth but
26:51
anyway let me use this language which we
26:53
all understand this transformation
26:57
cannot take place by itself
27:01
there has to be what Christian will call
27:03
grace Muslims will call Grace Baraka
27:06
fade divine succor divine help without
27:11
which even the blame ourselves we will
27:14
not be able to cure ourselves from the
27:16
blemishes that we have that's a very
27:18
very difficult thing very very difficult
27:20
thing to do much more difficult than
27:22
getting 10 PhDs in physics or another
27:25
sub gender from the best universities
27:27
much more difficult and once we attain
27:31
that however once we are able to heal
27:33
those errors of the soul the solar
27:38
surface transformed alchemically like
27:40
base metal into gold into what is called
27:42
NASA motto and now that is the soul the
27:46
rest in peace the rest and divine peace
27:50
and this is the peace from which
27:53
emanates compassion
27:54
this is the point where Islam and
27:58
Buddhism also have a lot in common you
28:01
always have these images of the Buddha
28:03
which have tremendous peace in I mean
28:05
traditional images whether Japanese a
28:08
sri lankan from Theravada or Mahayana or
28:11
of course was Ryan our school in Tibet
28:13
are the most beautiful images they're
28:15
always a remark or element apiece but
28:18
combined with compassion and compassion
28:21
issues at this level of the soul and
28:25
once one reaches that then one which is
28:28
the highest level according to Sufism
28:30
which is naphtha radhiya tan mariathon
28:33
as the Quran says that is the soul that
28:35
is both satisfied with God and God is
28:39
satisfied with it that is the highest
28:42
attainment that was satisfied here
28:44
rather from which comes so many Arabic
28:47
names like the word red Ahmadi and so on
28:49
and so on is a very profound virtue to
28:52
be able to be satisfied we are
28:55
dissatisfied human beings we cannot be
28:57
satisfied they cannot go become
29:00
satisfied unless we are able to try to
29:02
go through these steps a perfection to
29:06
gradually attain the state beyond the
29:09
limitations of the ego is a great
29:12
mystery of the human state which all
29:15
religions have emphasized is that the
29:22
human state needs something beyond
29:26
itself in order to be human to deny the
29:33
divine element in human beings is to
29:37
live below the human and Sufism
29:40
emphasizes that every religion
29:42
emphasizes that and she was always the
29:45
door within Islam for not only talking
29:47
about this but also attaining it now to
29:51
attain that stage is to realize the
29:54
truth that the Quran mentions and says
29:56
verily we created you from a single soul
30:00
nav stonewash God says that we created
30:02
all human beings from a single soul but
30:06
that we are not aware of that
30:07
usually that is the origin of compassion
30:10
compassion is not simply sentimentality
30:14
tomorrow one issue I'm going to talk
30:16
about it is in compassion and truth
30:18
which we often times negates and deny
30:21
and neglect to the very great cost to
30:24
humanity I shall say something about
30:26
that tomorrow but let me just say here
30:28
that compassion are only sentimentality
30:30
it is that includes good sentiments good
30:33
sentiments are fine it's not just feel
30:36
good by giving a dollar to some poor
30:38
person in the street it's much more
30:40
profound than that compassion is to be
30:43
true to ourselves true to ourselves to
30:47
be our real self why because once we
30:50
transcend all the limited levels of the
30:52
self and attain the highest state of
30:55
itself we realize what the piranha that
30:58
were created from a single soul that in
31:02
fact myself is the self of all selves so
31:07
true charity is helping myself no
31:11
industries of hoarding all the wealth of
31:13
others that's to become imprisoned in
31:15
that ego which am trying to escape from
31:19
but to realize that to give is also to
31:23
receive that's what Christ said is more
31:24
blessed to give than to receive
31:26
because in giving we realize ourselves
31:29
much more than in receiving and this is
31:32
not at all sentiment it's made pure by
31:35
the physics it's a science it's based on
31:38
the reality that first of all ultimately
31:41
all of us in the deeper sense are one
31:44
soul or instead nafsan Barford a single
31:47
soul secondly in helping others in being
31:53
charitable towards others
31:55
in showing compassion for others will be
31:58
cool too the only thing that is ready to
32:00
in us that is the supreme self the only
32:04
thing that is really real in us the only
32:06
that's true in us is the supreme self
32:09
everything else is Maya as shadow is
32:11
half truth illusion whatever term you
32:15
want to use
32:15
I don't impure illusion Maya is not pure
32:18
illusion is all the divine play as or an
32:20
Akuma
32:20
some said but usually translate illusion
32:23
but anyway it's not ultimate reality the
32:26
owners ultimately real is the divine
32:29
self in us and so this compassion really
32:33
is to be oneself and to be truly oneself
32:38
to be real the only way we can be real
32:40
is to be compassionate in the deepest
32:44
sense metaphysical sense of the term and
32:46
we have to introduce this intellectual
32:48
spiritual element into something which
32:51
appears to many people to be simple
32:53
emotions even the emotions God has put
32:56
in our heart because the emotions also
32:59
reflect deeper levels of our being the
33:02
fact that good people are charitable is
33:04
not accidental it's related to the to
33:08
goodness because goodness is what takes
33:10
us away from their confines of the ego
33:13
which orders us to do evil as we say al
33:18
Amara Basu now they're usually several
33:27
ways are breaking the walls of the ego
33:31
chorus for very different ways that's
33:34
why I had different forms of yoga and
33:35
Hinduism different paths and Buddhism in
33:40
Islam and Christianity some religions
33:42
emphasize one more some others I don't
33:45
want to into it you know compared to
33:47
religion now Judaism for azan had a path
33:50
of knowledge in the Kabbalah which is
33:51
much more accentuated that Christian
33:54
path was mostly the path of love but
33:56
path of love is not absent in Judaism
33:58
knows the path of knowledge and
34:00
Christianity and silver than some could
34:02
go down the line now just turning to
34:05
Islam but these are comments already
34:08
pertain to other religions as well the
34:11
several ways that we can come overcome
34:15
the walls of the ego and the first
34:19
question of course the mark up why do we
34:20
have to overcome walls of the ego you
34:23
have to overcome it because it
34:24
suffocates us because we suffer from it
34:27
the do car by the Buddha speaks has to
34:30
do precisely with this
34:32
if we could be happy in the prison of
34:34
the ego all religion would be useless
34:37
and for nobody would have followed over
34:40
the millennia anything has been followed
34:43
over the millennia must have had some
34:44
use other people wouldn't follow it your
34:47
honey didn't taste sweet not every
34:49
civilization will not have honey one way
34:51
or another nice diet this is the same
34:53
way this is a very very important point
34:56
so since we're not happy it cannot be
35:00
happy in this prison of the ego our
35:03
spirit is made for the infinite it's
35:05
made for the empyrion it's not made for
35:07
the bottom of a well since we are not
35:09
happy the several ways in which this
35:12
there is wall or borders of this limited
35:16
egos limited existence in which most of
35:19
us live can be removed there's not only
35:22
one one is of course through pure
35:25
knowledge pure knowledge the path of the
35:28
Vedanta which had the equivalents in
35:32
Sufism that is submental knowledge burns
35:36
through all of the limitations of
35:39
existence and leads ultimately to the
35:43
Sun which alone is not everyone however
35:48
is gifted with this attitude that
35:50
everyone can follow the path of pure
35:52
knowledge there's then the path of love
35:55
part of devotion and this path of
35:58
devotion is to go beyond our ego to give
36:02
ourselves and love this attachment
36:05
love means attachment whereas knowledge
36:09
overtimes employs detachment from some
36:12
things love organ is attachment the
36:14
object of love is what we're attached to
36:16
there's no such as detached love there's
36:20
no fire that does not burn now this is a
36:24
very very important element some people
36:26
would say the most important element of
36:28
possible spiritual paths or this ritual
36:32
love of humanity and that is the path of
36:35
love which is not only the love for God
36:37
but also love for all that comes from
36:40
God which means all of his creation and
36:42
here come in is to be found
36:46
real meaning of compassion the word
36:50
compassion and Latin comes from two
36:52
words come
36:53
which means together pathos from Greek
36:58
pathos which means pain pain originally
37:03
pathology you have a medicine but also
37:07
it means elation of the soul it means
37:10
movement of the soul and the deepest
37:14
sense compassion means feeling the pains
37:18
of others and deepest sense that
37:22
illogical that's what the word means but
37:25
how do why do we feel the pains of
37:27
others because the other is none other
37:29
than ourselves and he or she who does
37:34
not feel the pain of others
37:35
is living not only below the human state
37:39
but even below their own possibilities
37:42
that we are not fully human to be human
37:45
is to be attached to the whole of
37:47
existence
37:48
and I for one who was the first person
37:50
perhaps in the West to speak about the
37:52
environmental crisis when nobody spoke
37:54
about it in the 1950s and 60s and in
37:57
spiritual sources not only the pollution
38:00
of rivers like the risen about before I
38:04
wrote I want to emphasize that
38:06
compassion metaphysically spiritually
38:09
speaking should not only be towards
38:11
human beings and it should certainly not
38:14
only be towards our religion or our
38:17
family or our town or our streets and so
38:19
forth and so on most will have some
38:21
compassion even murderers have
38:23
compassion perhaps for the sister living
38:25
down the street and give her some money
38:26
but must be infinite there must be no
38:30
boundary to it and most important of all
38:32
is compassionate towards all creatures
38:34
one of the greatest lessons I think that
38:37
the modern Western learned from oriental
38:39
spirituality where this Hindu Buddhist
38:42
Islamic anything else
38:43
Taoist is that there is no completely
38:47
sharp line between the human and the
38:51
nonhuman I don't mean the Darwinian
38:52
sense the organism is a kind of
38:54
caricature of truth its truth and virtue
38:57
bernard agree
38:58
but I'm talking about the fact that the
39:02
value of existence is not only of human
39:05
beings we cannot sacrifice everything
39:08
for the sake of human beings nor is it
39:10
only in life we cannot sacrifice
39:12
mountains and rivers for the sake of
39:16
life in general they're all intertwined
39:20
together that's why when we destroy the
39:23
salinity of the ocean so called non
39:26
living water of the ocean we also affect
39:29
all the living things in it and destroy
39:32
them so this compassion is something
39:35
which is absolutely essential not for
39:38
the realization of the truth and for
39:40
keeping the world going without
39:42
compassion human beings cannot survive
39:45
we are now observing this before us
39:49
you're observing our own suicide because
39:52
of lack of compassion amid a physical
39:54
sense now that there are no
39:56
compassionate people around there are
39:59
Christians who go and open up hospitals
40:01
in Africa and they're very compassion
40:03
and a human level they have no interest
40:05
whatsoever in nature and other creatures
40:08
because they were never taught that in
40:10
school they were never taught that
40:12
Christianity thing to say about the
40:13
sacredness of nature so compassion and
40:16
deeper sense goes back to the
40:18
metaphysical structure of reality and in
40:22
the West itself and classical texts in
40:24
Middle Ages and Renaissance there were
40:26
certain flaws and theologians who wrote
40:29
about sympathia
40:31
and Latin sympathy sympathy is very very
40:36
profound as it was they said between all
40:38
creatures their sympathy the vertical
40:40
sympathy between heaven and earth every
40:43
creature on the earth and heaven that
40:45
celestial prototyped and on the earth
40:48
horizontal between all creatures
40:50
sympathy are means to feel the pain of
40:52
others they get again same word sim and
40:56
pathos root this root is the same and so
41:00
when we talk about silence and
41:05
compassion you must understand that this
41:08
is not a sentimental matter
41:11
it is to realize the nature of things on
41:14
why silence because silence is a symbol
41:21
of the origin before the cacophony began
41:27
and is more than a symbol it's a very
41:32
important point we could say everything
41:35
that we say about silence about lights
41:37
because light and sound are the two
41:39
fundamental phenomena which usually may
41:42
use of in all religious sects to
41:43
describe by the physical truth we don't
41:46
be taught much less about perfume
41:47
although occasionally for example an
41:49
Islamic hadith the Prophet spoke about
41:52
perfume but usually it's light and sound
41:55
and why is it that we always talk about
41:57
holy silence we don't talk about holy
42:01
darkness because if you talk about the
42:05
symbolism of light what corresponds to
42:08
silence and sound is darkness and light
42:11
and that darkness that darkness is there
42:16
in metaphysics Nicolas of crucifix a
42:18
billion Christian metaphysics and is
42:19
very very important in both Hinduism and
42:22
Islam you have the neither Brahman in
42:24
Hindu cosmology
42:26
I dare not speak about Hinduism with all
42:28
the great authorities from India here
42:30
but I'm a humble student of Hinduism
42:33
also I've studied for years at Harvard
42:36
and reading the words of Kumaraswamy and
42:37
going to India and very very humble sort
42:40
of never write about Hinduism because
42:41
that's not my field but I know they wish
42:43
about it that according to Hindu
42:45
cosmology the world is reabsorbed into
42:49
the reality of Brahman and then you have
42:51
the night of Brahma and which is just
42:53
pure darkness there's nothing it's a
42:55
nothing which is a no thing but it's
42:57
everything it's it's not a nothing it's
43:00
everything from which then the next day
43:02
a Brahman emanates the next cosmic cycle
43:05
and all the moment eras and you guzzles
43:07
over the so on and in Islam we have the
43:10
most beautiful images of a sin in any
43:12
poetry in Sufi poetry about the symbols
43:17
of night which is called black light the
43:21
light which is the is black because of
43:23
the excess
43:25
of its manifestation not because of
43:27
darkness but the excess of his glow and
43:31
there's this divine poem and Colchoneros
43:34
the secret Rose Garden of Shaba study my
43:37
favorite Sufi poet along the hoppers and
43:39
Rumi
43:40
who says you think of God in the world
43:43
is Shapiro Shan Mian aru's attareekh the
43:47
Persian poem and illuminate at night
43:49
amidst the dark day the day seems to us
43:53
to be luminous it is really dark was
43:56
also separation of the divine and the
43:57
night appears to be dark but it is
44:01
illuminated because it symbolizes a non
44:03
manifested silence in terms of light
44:06
rather than sound but why should we talk
44:08
about silence all the time because we
44:10
accept great sense cannot make light but
44:13
becoming sound that's the reason that's
44:17
the reason and so silence is also very
44:21
important of a practical point of view
44:22
from the way of reigning in in a sense
44:26
the whole cosmogonic process of
44:29
generation and returning it back to the
44:31
source to the principle and that is why
44:33
there's always an element of silence and
44:36
spiritual people don't forget that
44:40
according to every religion we are here
44:41
not because of silence but because of
44:43
sound going to Hindu metaphysics that
44:46
the sound ohm were not here we will not
44:48
be here the book of Johnson in the
44:50
beginning was the word it is the
44:52
beginning was silence and the world was
44:54
sociable Christ in Islam it says all a
44:57
lock on fire corn in the Quran God said
45:00
be and there was so we're here not
45:03
because of silence were here because of
45:04
divine sound this is very very important
45:07
to remember and so what is spiritual and
45:11
every spiritual path is this great
45:13
mystery that sound this sound sacred
45:17
sound brings us back to sacred silence
45:20
whereas the cacophony does not but we
45:24
come from silence but we are in sound
45:27
and so is through sound that we go back
45:30
to God and I believe that a lot of
45:33
Westerners who practice meditation
45:36
witnessed our combined
45:38
with an active element some nearly japa
45:42
or there will have very great difficulty
45:46
really getting to the source it so
45:49
there's a half of the process I don't
45:52
want to give it directed for others
45:55
that's done my business but you look at
45:58
the totality of things you realize that
46:00
as the Sufis say we have come into this
46:05
world through the word and it's by the
46:08
word that we shall leave this world and
46:10
the word here of course means the name
46:12
of God manifestation but you have
46:14
exactly same things and christianism in
46:16
Hinduism in Hinduism any references to
46:20
this and even in Buddhism were they're
46:24
not supposed to be a divinity in the
46:27
sense of Ishwara or Brahman or Allah or
46:29
something like that
46:30
nevertheless we all know the
46:32
significance of nimbu Tzu of various
46:35
forms of ejaculatory prayer especially
46:38
in later forms of Buddhism in China Zen
46:40
and Jewish in especially in Japan more
46:45
than Zen then rise a great deal and
46:48
silence but it does have certain forms
46:49
of ejaculatory prayers all of these
46:52
point to the fact that when we talk
46:55
about silence and compassion we must
46:58
understand what the silence is how do we
47:02
reach silence how to become quiet and
47:05
where are we
47:08
why is it that silence leads to
47:11
compassion and let me finish my time is
47:14
up
47:15
I was supposed to speak 40 minutes
47:17
exactly 48 minutes I'm an MIT graduate
47:21
you know I have to be very precise and
47:23
in matter but in mathematics I'm not
47:26
wandering wandering dervishes who speak
47:28
for four hours and set up for deployment
47:30
[Laughter]
47:33
we are in this world because the primal
47:37
silence was broken by the sacred silence
47:40
itself other words were in the world but
47:46
that prior primordial silence which
47:49
somehow always remains within the sound
47:51
of its own creation
47:52
had provided for us the means of
47:55
returning unto it through the divine
47:59
sound and one of the concomitant of this
48:02
is the realization of who we are and to
48:06
realize who we are must realize that our
48:10
self is the self of all selves and this
48:13
is the metaphysical foundation for all
48:16
compassion and so no matter how great a
48:18
manifestation one is how great our
48:20
thinker there is no gate to heaven
48:23
without compassion there is knows
48:26
blessed soul with our silence thank you
48:51
I will begin I will begin with a chance
49:00
as first in Sanskrit within the
49:02
translation nerve are three poor antico
49:10
of Ottawa Bramha Surendra tava van or
49:17
wash a lecture note the Bhagavad Buddha
49:21
Siddhartha raga do a Chevy short imahara
49:28
heeta soprano cambodia toe yes are away
49:33
so Hasan scritto boon organised us my
49:37
enema surah fatah the supreme reality
49:43
and its messengers are known by various
49:45
names and various traditions but as for
49:50
me I offer my worship always to the one
49:53
going by any name and belonging to any
49:55
tradition who is free from attachment
49:58
and hatred free from worldliness and
50:01
delusion who is filled with compassion
50:04
for all living beings and who is
50:07
possessed of all noble virtues Oh Sean
50:11
this Shanti Shanti he hurry he own
50:17
thoughts at all peace peace peace be
50:21
unto us all first let me say it's a
50:27
great blessing to be here it's a great
50:29
blessing to be here with dr. Nasir
50:32
someone whom I have admired from a
50:35
distance for some years known about if
50:38
you haven't read his book which there's
50:40
several books of his out here all of
50:42
which are very good the garden of truth
50:44
is a wonderful wonderful text that I
50:47
recommend highly to everyone so I feel
50:50
honored really to be here
50:52
and at the same platform with such a
50:54
distinguished man such as a man of great
50:59
insight great knowledge great learning
51:03
really I'm was overcome when I heard
51:07
that this was possible I thank very much
51:10
the organizers who have made this
51:12
extraordinary event possible I've heard
51:17
it said several times well you've come
51:19
all the way from India for this you
51:21
couldn't have kept me from coming once
51:24
the once I knew it was possible to come
51:26
it was a it was an honor for me to come
51:28
and I thank the City of Louisville for
51:30
making this possible it's really an
51:32
extraordinary thing I've been to many
51:34
mentor religious events and I've been to
51:36
many cities in America and and other
51:38
countries but it's a very unusual thing
51:41
that a city like Louisville would put on
51:44
such an event and put it on year after
51:46
year so I think those of you who are
51:50
here from Louisville I think all of you
51:52
who came from outside for coming and I
51:55
thank the organizers for the wonderful
51:57
work that they have that they have done
51:59
so first let me say that yeat who
52:05
everything that dr. nasir has said
52:07
professor Nasser has said there's
52:09
nothing obviously if I were to speak on
52:12
the same topic as I as I will now I'll
52:14
say it in different terms but there's
52:16
nothing which he said which I would have
52:20
the slightest slightest quibble with so
52:25
I I will speak in different somewhat
52:27
different terms but at least from my
52:29
perspective and I hope from his at least
52:33
from my perspective it's and it's
52:35
complimentary I always like just as a
52:39
matter of personality as a matter of
52:42
temperament I like to work from the
52:46
terms of a theme that I've been given
52:48
here sacred silence and compassion so
52:51
let me first address the term sacred
52:54
that's the easiest of the three terms I
52:57
can be dispensed with easily not because
52:59
it's not important it's very important
53:01
but because it's easy to speak
53:04
about it's very common nowadays for
53:06
people to say that well everything is
53:08
sacred and yes that's true everything is
53:11
sacred but also everything is secular
53:14
everything is secular to the mind which
53:16
is non sacred that is to the mind which
53:19
doesn't see the sacred everything is
53:22
secular religion is secular god is dead
53:26
and everything in the universe is just
53:29
material just dead dull and sentient
53:32
matter that is and so to the person who
53:38
is spiritually minded everything is
53:42
spiritual there is no secular someone
53:47
said let there be light God said let
53:49
there be light and there was light
53:52
it's certainly easier to see you this
53:54
way
53:54
I can actually see where I'm speaking to
53:57
it it doesn't doesn't matter so to the
54:00
to the mind that is able to see
54:03
everything is sacred and everything is
54:06
full of light everything so every
54:13
everything is sacred and so sacred and
54:18
secular depends on the mind I would say
54:21
that ultimately everything is only
54:24
sacred there is only the sacred that
54:26
that is the that is the truth but to the
54:28
mind who doesn't see that to the mind is
54:30
not sensitive to that then yes
54:32
everything is seen as just dog dead and
54:35
in sentient so sacred everything is
54:38
sacred if we have the eyes to see it
54:40
silence what is silence
54:43
we can't understand silence without
54:45
understanding sound and without
54:48
understanding a special form of sound
54:49
which is word so there are different
54:53
levels of silence let's first begin with
54:56
physical silence what is physical
54:58
silence physical silence obviously is
55:01
the absence of sound including human
55:04
language but the absence of sound and
55:06
physical sound of course are just waves
55:10
vibrations that pass through a medium
55:12
such a physical medium such as air or
55:14
water or our own voices sound different
55:17
too
55:18
cells from what they sound to our
55:20
hearers nowadays it's not so long before
55:25
a person first hears their own voice
55:27
recorded but when I was a kid
55:28
tape recorders were rare and I was in
55:31
the eighth or ninth grade ninth grade
55:33
before I ever heard my recorded voice
55:35
and I was shocked that's me I don't
55:39
sound like that
55:40
but that's because I hear myself not
55:41
just through the air
55:44
the vibrations I'm making out into the
55:46
air but through the bones of my of my
55:49
head and so sound is carried to a
55:53
physical physical medium but sound is
55:58
more than just vibration first of all
56:00
who is there sound without an ear to
56:05
hear it or better is there sound without
56:07
consciousness to be aware of it sound is
56:11
the way that we react to or what the
56:14
minds reaction to vibrations so unless
56:17
there is a consciousness that hears
56:19
sound there's not really sound there
56:21
maybe it's arguable whether there are
56:23
vibrations are not without an awareness
56:26
there to perceive it I won't go into
56:28
that argument but certainly there's not
56:29
really sound just as there's not really
56:32
light what we know is light and what we
56:34
know is color without a consciousness to
56:36
perceive it and sound all sound even not
56:41
speaking of human language all sound is
56:44
information if I hear a neighbor running
56:47
a chainsaw that gives me information
56:48
because everything in the universe is
56:51
knowledge everything is everything is
56:54
prakasha as it said in sanskrit that is
56:57
manifesting knowledge the manifestation
56:59
of knowledge and so all sound is
57:01
knowledge and word is a special type of
57:04
sound through words we can say thoughts
57:07
concepts from one mind to another all
57:10
sound conveys information for those who
57:13
can hear it just as is interesting with
57:15
dogs dogs have such a profound sense of
57:18
smell we think of smell in terms of good
57:22
smells and bad smells basically but for
57:25
dog smells have so much information
57:27
that's why when you take a dog for a
57:28
walk it stops at the fire hydrant
57:31
and can stay there for 5-10 minutes just
57:33
sniffing because there's so much
57:34
information there to be gathered so for
57:36
us sound is full of information light is
57:40
full of information and so it's a
57:42
universe of knowledge but where does
57:45
this particular type of sound a sound
57:47
which conveys from one mind to another
57:49
conveys thought from one mind to another
57:52
and so the absence of physical sound is
57:55
what we normally think of as silence
57:57
let's all be silent then everybody knows
57:59
there's okay now we're not going to talk
58:01
and we're not going to make noise and
58:05
that will be our experience of silence
58:08
and so silence for most people means
58:12
physical silence but as dr. nasir
58:14
beautifully said that's not the most
58:16
important part of silence we can
58:18
fetishize silence and as soon as we do
58:20
then we hear sound like we just heard we
58:22
say well let's all be quiet and then
58:24
suddenly all kinds of sounds start
58:26
happening and then we get irritated and
58:28
frustrated and we try to control the
58:29
environment so those sounds don't come
58:32
so sound our silence is much more than
58:36
just physical silence the absence of
58:38
physical sound there benefits to
58:41
physical silence relative physical
58:43
silence absolute physical silence isn't
58:45
even possible if you as long as there is
58:49
an operator mind attached to the ear
58:52
absolute silence is impossible but some
58:57
limited silence is beneficial because it
59:00
gives us a chance to focus on what's
59:01
going on in the mind but that's where
59:03
real silence begins to take place so the
59:07
search for silence is really the search
59:10
for internal silence and external
59:13
silence only as far as it helps but
59:15
again it's a mistake to fetishize it to
59:16
make it too important in our spiritual
59:19
lives because we can't control it so
59:20
often so the search for silence leads us
59:23
to the search for mental mental silence
59:26
so mental noise what is mental noise
59:30
mental noise is the cacophony of
59:32
thoughts that are within the mind the
59:35
thoughts that are going on as dr. nasir
59:36
beautifully pointed out our thoughts are
59:39
generally in the form of sound and
59:41
sound an image according to the Vedanta
59:45
and to the yoga psychology there's a
59:47
point where image and sound divine
59:50
there's a place above the ordinary
59:52
operation of the mind not beyond the
59:54
mind but beyond the ordinary or
59:56
operation of the mind before sound and
59:58
image separate where the two are one but
60:01
for us in our normal mental operation
60:03
their image and and words concepts and
60:09
so mental noise is different from
60:12
physical noise so many people come to
60:15
people like myself spiritual person a
60:19
person who's practicing spirituality I
60:21
don't make any claims for myself but
60:23
someone who's practicing sincerely
60:25
trying the best that he can and says
60:27
Swami I wish I could just tell my mind
60:30
to shut up I wish I could find some way
60:34
to tell my mind to shut up so that's the
60:36
silence that's where silence really
60:38
begins when we begin to work with the
60:41
mind what is mental noise again mental
60:44
noises thoughts primarily words and
60:47
images and mental silence is the
60:50
relative absence of those thoughts that
60:53
cacophony of thinking remembering and
60:58
imaging that's where the the practice of
61:03
meditation comes in and also as dr.
61:06
nasir beautifully pointed out we can't
61:09
get there just by killing thought by
61:12
saying okay I'm just going to kill the
61:14
mind I'm going to destroy the mind or
61:16
I'm going to destroy thinking I'm just
61:17
going to stop thinking what happens when
61:20
we try to do that one of two things
61:21
either we go to sleep because the mind
61:25
is used to activity or the mind rebels
61:27
and just spins off into an ending
61:30
activity and we get distracted and we
61:31
forget we're even supposed to be
61:33
practicing Saye steadiness of the mind
61:36
so studying of the mind is usually done
61:38
in one of several ways one way is
61:41
through the practice of mindfulness
61:43
present in all spiritual traditions it
61:46
was especially developed in the Buddhist
61:48
tradition as a science in itself in
61:50
other traditions you see @mention
61:52
mentioned
61:52
Christ Himself mentions that he says
61:55
watch and pray praying is meditating
61:59
watching is being mindful watching is
62:02
being mindful and - and fulness what you
62:05
do is you try to establish a steady
62:07
field of awareness not focusing on one
62:10
particular thing but holding the mind as
62:13
a steady field of awareness being aware
62:15
of whatever arises within the field of
62:17
your awareness but holding the mother
62:19
awareness steady and alert
62:23
another type of another approach to
62:27
mental quietude comes through focusing
62:30
the mind what you could call the yogic
62:32
approach where you focus the mind on one
62:35
thing through jabba that is repetition
62:37
of a mantra focusing the mind on a
62:41
symbol on a word etc even on a physical
62:47
object but something to bring the powers
62:49
of the mind to a focus that has great
62:51
value as does mindfulness focusing the
62:55
mind on one point has great value
62:57
because all knowledge comes through
62:59
concentration anything that we want to
63:01
understand the secrets off by focusing
63:03
the mind on it that's the way that we
63:05
opened the secrets - to nature internal
63:08
and external and so focusing the mind
63:11
mindfulness focusing the mind or seeking
63:14
seeking and Christian prayer for
63:17
instance in the mystical prayer of the
63:20
Christians not just the vocal prayer and
63:23
so forth but the mystical prayer has
63:24
developed by a great Christian mystics
63:26
you find them speaking about getting rid
63:29
of words getting rid of images and just
63:31
waiting on God but that waiting is a
63:34
seeking it's a wait it's an active
63:36
waiting otherwise again the mind just
63:38
falls asleep and so in seeking mental
63:41
stillness and you know as I said at the
63:45
beginning I'd like to define terms
63:46
that's the way I approach things I'll
63:48
come to compassion but first I want to
63:51
deal it a little bit more with with
63:53
silence and the opposites of silence the
63:55
opposite of silence so we try to bring
63:57
the mind to stillness but we do that
63:59
either by focusing or by holding the
64:02
mind alert as a field of awareness and
64:04
watching things arising in it
64:05
practice of mindfulness or waiting or
64:08
seeking waiting and seeking a really two
64:10
aspects of the same thing that is
64:13
seeking God in silence and in darkness
64:16
waiting for God in silence and darkness
64:18
or in the bade antic tradition there's a
64:21
practice also present in Chinese
64:24
Buddhism in the charm Buddhism of China
64:27
Chinese in the practice of seeking for
64:30
the self that is seeking the source of
64:32
my awareness the seeking the source of
64:34
my awareness so I'm not going to go into
64:36
all of these practices I'm just saying
64:38
the that is an important point to know
64:40
where do we find silence physical
64:44
silence can only be relative mental
64:46
silence that's where we seek it but to
64:48
seek it we don't just say okay now I'm
64:50
just going to be silent and that the
64:52
mind just be quiet the mind won't do
64:54
that it'll either go to sleep or it'll
64:56
spin off into activities so something
64:58
which disciplines the mind which brings
65:00
it into a state of silence there's the
65:06
second Sutra that is aphorism of the
65:10
Yoga aphorisms or the Yoga Sutras the
65:12
most famous of all of the aphorism zone
65:15
yoga which is yogas chitta vritti
65:17
nirodha Yoga is the cessation of the
65:21
modifications of mind that's talking
65:24
about the perfection of yoga much of the
65:26
rest of the Yoga Sutras tells how you
65:28
get there and they give techniques for
65:29
doing it by training in the mind not
65:31
just by killing the mind which you can't
65:33
do but by training the mind for instance
65:35
through focusing and other their methods
65:37
seeking and waiting etc but Yoga is the
65:41
cessation of the modifications of mind
65:43
and then it says tada the rush to Swarup
65:46
a vast Onam then when the waves of the
65:49
mind of society then the seer is
65:52
established in its own nature the seer
65:54
is what the seers the saw the self which
65:57
dr. nasir was talking about the true
65:59
self the divine self the one self the
66:02
self where all of our selves meet when
66:05
the mind becomes still and becomes quiet
66:07
that are the residues would obey vast
66:09
Onam then the seer is established in its
66:12
own nature you are the seer I am the
66:15
seer each one of us is the seer the
66:17
animal the conscious
66:19
any conscious being is the seer and yet
66:23
we've identified with the activities of
66:25
the mind so that's why silence is
66:27
important
66:28
that's why silence leads us towards the
66:30
truth the truth which is also compassion
66:33
it's because when the mind is still then
66:36
the truth becomes revealed a very common
66:41
metaphor which or simile which you've
66:44
all probably heard is of the still lake
66:46
when the lake is perfectly still you get
66:48
a perfect reflection we've all seen
66:50
beautiful calendars of Alpine Lakes
66:52
where the water is perfectly still and
66:55
there's a perfect reflection of the
66:57
trees on the other bank and sometimes
67:00
when you first look at it you're not
67:01
sure which way to turn the picture
67:02
because which is the reflection and
67:04
which is the reality
67:05
so the mind when it's still then reality
67:09
becomes perceived and then the the next
67:14
Stu theorem just to complete that
67:17
thought is reti sarupya meter atre at
67:21
other times at times when the mind is
67:23
not still then we are identified with
67:25
the waves in the mind and so we seek
67:28
silence why we seek internal silence
67:31
mental silence so that we can come
67:34
closer to God so that we can know the
67:35
truth yes again I keep referring because
67:38
this talk was so rich I really again I
67:40
feel sure I was if after dr. Nasser's
67:45
talk had ended they'd said okay that's
67:47
the end I would have been perfectly
67:48
happy but they didn't say that so now I
67:51
had to get up to say something but but
67:56
as
67:58
the the the the idea of of the internal
68:06
stillness where where the mind has
68:09
become still and the self becomes that
68:12
the self becomes revealed then that
68:14
again that's what we're seeking in in
68:16
silence there's a and here we begin to
68:20
come I said there are levels of silence
68:22
there's physical silence and mental
68:24
silence which we've just been speaking
68:25
about and then there's metaphysical
68:26
silence which is what we're coming to
68:28
now metaphysical silence there's a
68:31
beautiful verse in the chandogya
68:33
upanishad one of the ancient Upanishads
68:36
one of the older the Punishers
68:37
themselves that the major Upanishads are
68:41
ancient in themselves but of them that
68:43
chandogya is one of the most ancient and
68:45
there there's a beautiful passage where
68:47
it says the ayah TV ayat Eva Pro TV the
68:52
ayat Avant erection diet Eva the hora
68:55
diet evil the giant Eve apple etc it
68:59
says the earth is as if meditating the
69:03
skies are as if meditating the heavens
69:05
are as if steeped in meditation the
69:08
waters the rivers the lakes are all
69:10
steeped in meditation the mountains are
69:13
steeped in meditation men women and
69:16
they'd the celestial beings are all
69:18
steeped in meditation David malucia
69:20
they're all steeped in meditation as we
69:24
begin to learn to quiet in the mind
69:27
through discipline then we begin to get
69:29
to that point where we feel that the
69:31
nature of everything really is silence
69:33
the nature of things are is silence we
69:37
begin to feel that everything is steeped
69:39
in meditation there was something I used
69:41
to do as a practice which I don't have
69:47
the opportunity right now to do as much
69:48
not as often but I used to do regularly
69:51
when I was in Hollywood California where
69:52
we have a villain to society I would
69:55
walk hour near our Center is Hollywood
69:58
and Vine and the Franklin Street and the
70:00
101 freeway going over the streets there
70:03
I'd walk down from our temple down to
70:06
this very busy area and just listen to
70:08
the extraordinary noise of car
70:11
and trucks and honking and people
70:13
talking and so forth and just try to
70:15
feel to make a distinction between
70:17
internal silence and external not that I
70:20
had attained a great a great spiritual
70:22
state no but it was a practice a
70:24
wonderful practice to try to feel that
70:26
yes silence is internal and to try to
70:28
feel an internal silence in the presence
70:31
of which the external silence loses its
70:34
significance then that's why again I
70:35
said it's not good to fetishize too much
70:37
external silence it's not good to
70:39
fetishize it some is helpful but we can
70:43
only control so much and we shouldn't
70:45
try it too hard to control it we should
70:48
learn to have that internal and as we
70:50
begin to develop that internal silence
70:51
then we begin to feel that silence is
70:54
the nature of reality and then we then
70:58
we begin to feel this that the the earth
71:00
is is if meditating the waters are as
71:02
though meditating the mountains are
71:03
meditating there was a another passage
71:08
you know and in Upanishad which has been
71:10
lost there it's only mentioned in a text
71:14
of Shankar Acharya the great Vedanta
71:16
philosopher who mentions this this
71:20
ancient text which we no longer have the
71:22
original - we just know this one little
71:24
segment there was a man named Bosh Kali
71:29
who came to ask a great teacher named
71:33
bhava about the nature of reality he had
71:36
heard that reality was transcendent that
71:38
reality was beyond time and space beyond
71:40
thought beyond concept so he goes to
71:42
this great teacher and and says 'add he
71:46
he bow all revered sir teach me teach me
71:49
the nature of Brahman teach me the
71:50
nature of the highest truth and so it
71:53
says that these see the teacher set
71:55
their duty m3t and a second time and a
71:58
third time he says teach me sir teach me
72:01
the nature of reality and so after the
72:03
third time of asking him and still the
72:06
teacher remaining silent then the
72:08
teacher says I am teaching you room aha
72:11
I am teaching you oopah Shantou jamaat
72:14
ma oopah Shonto iam Atma the nia the
72:17
name of the self is silence the name of
72:20
the highest self is silence I am
72:22
teaching us again that beautiful
72:26
incident which dr. nasir himself
72:28
witnessed an extraordinary incident and
72:32
so here in the Upanishads that that is
72:34
mentioned there's also another incident
72:36
like what dr. nasir mentioned in him
72:39
called the Dakshinamoorthy stotra a
72:42
great great hymn which there's a verse
72:45
in it which begins austere iam but a
72:48
terrible a guru shishya Veda guru you ah
72:52
how wonderful seated under the banyan
72:55
tree there's a teacher who's a young man
72:57
and seated around him are elderly
72:59
disciples the teachers teaches in
73:02
silence gurus - Mona machi Onam the
73:05
teacher teaches through silence
73:07
sheesh astute in the some Shia but this
73:10
doubts of the students are dispelled
73:12
forever that's something that only
73:15
agreed to a teacher as the the great
73:17
former Shankar Acharya Kancheepuram the
73:21
dr. Nasir met only a great teacher like
73:23
that can teach in that with that type of
73:25
silence but those who can teach in such
73:28
a silence just their very presence is a
73:31
great teaching that's the type of
73:33
silence that we want to attain we want
73:35
to approach it from where we can now and
73:38
in spiritual life one of the things to
73:39
know is what is our eventual goal and
73:42
how do I work to get there how do I get
73:45
from where I am now and so we begin
73:47
where we are now but we need to know
73:49
where it is that I want to go and so
73:51
that's where we want to want to go there
73:56
was a great king in Indian lore who
74:02
asked his ministers and the wise men of
74:04
his kingdom to teach him the knowledge
74:06
of the self to teach him how to realize
74:09
the self that is the the divine the
74:12
infinite self the one self of which we
74:14
all are part where our being merges into
74:17
the being of the divine so yes and the
74:20
different people taught him different
74:21
things but he couldn't get it he
74:23
couldn't get it but he had real hunger
74:25
it wasn't just an idle speculative wish
74:29
of his to understand something he really
74:31
wanted to experience this a deeper
74:33
reality and so for years he went on
74:35
asking people
74:36
trying what he was taught one day it
74:38
said that they God took compassion on
74:40
him and God appeared before him in the
74:43
form of a gardener taking the form just
74:45
of an ordinary humble gardener that the
74:48
king of course didn't recognize and the
74:50
gardener was there trimming the plants
74:51
in the garden and the king came up to
74:55
him and asked the gardener Oh gardener
74:58
please hand me a rose and so then the
75:00
gardener stood up and said stop the King
75:05
because of his years of practice he was
75:08
ready when the gardener who is really
75:10
the divine in appearing in human form
75:13
said stop
75:14
suddenly they did the King said stop
75:16
okay I stopped my body but no the vital
75:20
force within me is still flowing stop
75:22
leave the erratic flowing of the vital
75:25
force but no he said stop let me stop
75:28
the mind and so he said he he brought
75:30
the mind to stillness which he could do
75:32
because of his years of practice and he
75:34
went on stopping everything until he
75:36
attained to the highest silence and
75:38
there he realized the highest truth so
75:40
again that's that's the silence there
75:42
that we want we may it may not be
75:44
accessible to us now but if we know
75:46
that's where we're going then we begin
75:48
to look in the right places there's a
75:52
another Vedic passage in ancient Vedic
75:54
passage before even the Upanishads in
75:56
the very oldest part of the Vedas which
75:59
says let me chant it for you and then
76:01
out translated says oh yo shanti
76:06
interaction shanti pretty v Shante ohh
76:13
Shante you today Ashanti Juanes pitaya
76:18
Chandi which way devar Chandi Brahma
76:25
Chandi sarvam shanti shanti shanti he
76:30
saw ma Chandi read
76:33
Oh Shonda shunned Ashanti Ashanti as
76:43
usually as most of you know is
76:44
translated as peace but it can also be
76:46
silenced but let me translate it in the
76:48
usual way as peace
76:50
this says pieces in the heavens pieces
76:53
in the sky pieces on earth the other
76:56
passage that I quoted before was the
76:59
earth as if meditating the sky as as if
77:02
meditating but here it's saying pieces
77:04
and the heavens and it's really not is
77:06
in but peace is the heavens pieces the
77:09
sky pieces the earth pieces the waters
77:12
peace is the plants in the trees peace
77:15
are the celestial beings peace is the
77:17
nature of truth may that truth real
77:20
truth be with us all that's the
77:24
translation of that particular prayer
77:26
and so again that's the peace that we
77:28
want as we begin to even approach it one
77:31
of the beautiful things about spiritual
77:33
life is that long before when we're
77:35
still ordinary people striving striving
77:37
and struggling to get somewhere on the
77:38
spiritual path we begin to see the
77:40
distant mountains we begin to see the
77:42
lay of the land and we beget we begin to
77:45
understand things that we can't yet
77:47
experience fully but we begin to see the
77:49
lay of the land before us we begin to
77:51
get glimpses and so one of the things we
77:54
begin to see at that time is what is the
77:57
nature of sound what is the nature of
77:59
sound Cius ound as silence itself sound
78:02
is made out of silence it's like
78:05
dropping a pebble into an ocean of
78:06
silence and the waves are what we call
78:08
sound if we begin to get even a glimpse
78:11
of that then the contrast between sound
78:13
and silence goes away for us or it
78:16
begins to go away for us we begin to see
78:18
through the the dichotomy between sound
78:21
and silence we begin to see that sound
78:23
itself is made of silence in our
78:26
relationship to saya sound itself
78:28
changes so let me say a word also about
78:31
word and then compassion and then I'll
78:34
bring it to a close as I've spoken a lot
78:37
about sound I want to say at least a
78:38
word or two about word because word is a
78:41
very particular type of sound
78:43
again the way that we communicate but
78:45
there are traditions as again dr. nasir
78:48
indicated there are traditions including
78:50
the Hindu and the Islamic and the
78:53
Christian and the Jewish traditions the
78:57
Kabbalistic tradition which say that
78:59
creation one way of looking at creation
79:01
as the creation has come out of the word
79:03
in the beginning was the word and the
79:05
Word was with God and the Word was God
79:07
says st. John there's a passage in the
79:10
Vedas that is exactly equal not the
79:13
Saint John copied the Vedas but it
79:15
reaffirms the truth of it did you see it
79:17
springing up in two different traditions
79:19
in different parts of the world in the
79:21
Vedas that says Allah
79:24
Prajapati Rita McGraw steeped in the
79:26
beginning was God Prajapati the lord of
79:28
beings in the beginning was Prajapati
79:30
log the co duty acid his second was the
79:35
word one way but among Rama and that
79:38
word is indeed God the god itself not
79:42
himself but God itself the neuter form
79:45
so in the beginning was God with him was
79:48
the second which was word and that word
79:49
is indeed the divine itself and so word
79:52
is also something that we our problem is
79:56
not words our problem is too many words
79:58
our problem is not sound our problem is
80:01
the misinterpretation of sound and
80:02
making too much sound
80:04
the problem with words is that we've
80:07
forgotten the meaning of words as I like
80:10
to say we know we're in trouble when
80:12
Coke is the real thing
80:16
we're in Salem serious trouble so our
80:21
problem is the use of words and the
80:23
misuse of words and the abuse of words
80:25
there's out of the word that creation
80:28
has come and so the word that comes out
80:31
of silence that's the creative word in
80:33
the Hebrew part of the Bible the Torah
80:36
they look of Genesis and the Old
80:39
Testament as Christians know it it said
80:41
that God said let there be light and
80:43
there was light it doesn't say that God
80:46
went and mixed up chemicals in the
80:47
laboratory poured out of the test tube
80:50
the first ray of light no God said let
80:53
there be light and there was light that
80:55
means that God's Word is creative and so
80:58
as again as dr. nasir referred to the
81:00
sacred word ohm they're the most sacred
81:02
word of Hinduism and the most universal
81:05
Hindi as a symbol of Hinduism which was
81:07
used about not only by the Hindus but
81:09
then by the Buddhists and the Sikhs and
81:12
the Giants and there's no reason why any
81:14
tradition couldn't use it because it's
81:17
there for anyone's used it part it's
81:19
part of the universal heritage of
81:21
humanity the sacred word ohm is said to
81:24
be the first creative sound out of which
81:26
everything else has come so we know the
81:29
meaning of language and we know the
81:31
significance of language all words come
81:33
from that divine source there's a
81:36
beautiful idea in Sanskrit grammar which
81:38
says that the true meaning of every word
81:41
because Sanskrit grammar and everything
81:43
in India had a spiritual foundation
81:44
grammar also was considered a spiritual
81:47
philosophy and even a spiritual path
81:49
that said that the true meaning of every
81:52
word is God the true meaning of every
81:55
word is Brahman there the true meaning
81:56
of every word is the highest spiritual
81:59
truth what does that mean it means that
82:01
everything that we can name is and
82:06
isness belongs to the divine the divine
82:09
is the being that is the divine is I am
82:13
that I am
82:15
that is that is the nature of the divine
82:17
and so when I say this podium I'm
82:21
pointing to something with which is I'm
82:23
saying this is and so it's first meaning
82:26
is the divine and secondly its its
82:29
manifestation the Divine Being
82:30
manifesting as a podium when I say a
82:33
person's name the first thing is the
82:35
spiritual reality which is represented
82:38
by that name secondarily the individual
82:40
person and so the meaning of every word
82:42
is primarily the divine secondarily a
82:45
particular object so again if we
82:46
understand the meaning of words then the
82:49
contrast between silence and words is
82:52
not what it once was
82:54
let me read two short passages then I'll
82:56
see a word of compassion and then
82:57
conclude one is from a Sanskrit
83:00
grammarian and he says about the
83:03
practice of spirituality from the
83:06
standpoint of word he says taking his
83:09
stand that is the spiritual aspiring
83:11
taking his stand on the essence of word
83:14
lying beyond the activity of breath that
83:17
is taking the word tracing the source of
83:20
word back when I'm speaking where does
83:22
that word come from I try to seek its
83:25
source back in my consciousness taking
83:27
his stand on the essence of the word
83:28
lying beyond the activity of breath
83:30
resting in oneself with all sequence in
83:33
the words eliminated there's a sequence
83:35
of sounds that make up a word it said
83:38
that when we go beyond the physical and
83:41
mental aspect of speech we go to a point
83:43
where there's not a sequence in the
83:45
sounds after having purified speech and
83:48
after having rested it on the mind after
83:50
having broken its bonds and made it bond
83:52
free after having reached to the inner
83:55
light through this process the Aspire
83:57
--nt with his knots cut becomes united
84:00
with the supreme light so again seeking
84:04
the source of word we take it back to
84:07
silence and we find a source in the
84:09
divine silence and let me read a
84:12
parallel passage that's even more
84:14
beautiful even more expressive from
84:16
al-ghazali the great islamic saint to
84:20
the Sufi saint he says let the seeker
84:24
sit alone in some corner let him see to
84:27
it that nothing save God the Most High
84:29
enters his mind then as he sits in
84:32
solitude let him not see saying
84:34
continuously with his tongue
84:35
Allah Allah keeping his thought on
84:39
the name of God at last he will reach a
84:41
state where the motion of the tongue
84:43
will cease again you remember Bertie
84:45
Hari the grammarian I was quoting before
84:47
he says actually I'm sorry I wasn't
84:49
bothering barre3 Hari but one of his
84:51
commentators he said that they were go
84:54
beyond the the level of the breath with
84:56
with the word so at last he will reach a
84:59
state where the motion of his tongue
85:01
will cease and it will see him as though
85:02
the word flows from it
85:04
let him persevere in this until all
85:06
trace of motion is removed from his
85:08
tongue and he finds his heart
85:10
persevering in the thought let him
85:12
persevere until the form of the words
85:13
its letters and its shape again the same
85:16
as what I was reading before is removed
85:18
from his heart that is the sequence and
85:20
there remains the idea alone as though
85:22
clinging to his heart inseparable from
85:24
it nothing now remains but to await what
85:27
God will open to him if he follows the
85:29
above course he may be sure that the
85:31
light of the reel will shine in his
85:33
heart
85:34
so again tracing word back to its source
85:36
its source in the divine so again if we
85:39
have if we learn the meaning of sound
85:42
and if we learn the meaning of silence
85:43
if we learn where to seek silence if we
85:46
learn all of this and we begin to find
85:49
that yes silence is the nature of
85:51
silence is the nature of reality silence
85:55
is the nature of everything that within
85:57
everything the silence is already
85:58
present it's not something we have to
85:59
create but then our our relationship to
86:03
sound changes and our relationship to
86:05
word changes as well
86:06
and finally compassion compassion is I
86:11
really don't have anything to add beyond
86:13
what dr. nasir said but let me just say
86:16
so that I will say something about it to
86:18
to complete the talk compassion is not
86:21
as he so beautifully explained it's not
86:24
sentimentality so it's not just to good
86:27
good feelings and it's certainly not
86:29
looking down on someone and feeling
86:31
sorry for them oh look at the poor
86:33
wretch their suffering let me do
86:34
something you throw them a bone or give
86:36
them something to help them out know
86:38
that obviously is not compassion
86:39
compassion is the feeling of sameness
86:42
the feeling of the pains of others and
86:46
the joys of others as my own feeling the
86:49
experience of others as my own
86:50
experience
86:51
is the value of that what is the value
86:53
of true compassion what's the value of
86:56
doing that the value is that that's
86:58
reality that is what the reality is
87:02
because there is no separation there is
87:04
no ultimate separation it's the feeling
87:06
of separation is being enclosed within
87:08
this ego self which is the source of all
87:10
of our problems and when we can overcome
87:12
that then we find that that compassion
87:15
is not something that we're told to do
87:18
because we're supposed to do it it's not
87:20
something that well is good for you it
87:21
may hurt but it's gonna be good for you
87:23
it'll form character no it's something
87:25
which is good for us because it's truth
87:26
it's something which is good for us
87:28
because it's our own nature it's
87:30
something that's good for us because
87:31
once we begin to open our hearts the
87:35
sense of ego becomes porous and we begin
87:37
to let the world outside be included in
87:39
our sense of self when our sense of self
87:42
begins to expand out and include the
87:44
rest of the world then we are the
87:46
gainers we are the gainers because we
87:48
become large not the ego but our real
87:51
being becomes large as long as we're
87:54
this little self enclosed to within
87:56
they're the ego then we're threatened by
87:58
everything as we become large as we
88:00
learn to include the world within our
88:02
sense of self then we become closer to
88:06
truth we become large and we find out
88:08
what true and lasting and secure joy is
88:17
[Applause]
88:36
gosh I feel like an interloper with my
88:43
cacophony to follow with so many
88:46
wonderful sacred words that evoke so
88:50
much silence and stillness in us well
88:55
I'm just an unworthy aspirant I'm deeply
88:58
grateful for the words of wisdom that we
89:01
have heard from you and I just sort of
89:04
sit here with a prayer that being the
89:06
middle of the sandwich that it all
89:08
gravitates towards me and I somehow
89:10
assimilate this intuitively and
89:13
subliminally my question really was that
89:18
as two eminent people who embody many of
89:24
the aspirations of what you to refer to
89:27
and what you describe for us in samsara
89:32
we struggle with our notions of
89:35
happiness and for us you know the
89:38
aspiration of the path usually in the
89:42
words that we are able to use manifested
89:45
well we want to be happy and not be
89:48
unhappy and to avoid suffering so what
89:51
are the unique characteristics or
89:54
qualities of someone who has achieved
90:00
sacred silence or enlightenment or
90:04
whatever phrases or words that one might
90:07
use what are the qualities what happens
90:10
what is the experience how do we
90:13
identify it
90:14
in what ways as it manifests itself as
90:17
everyday beings what can we hope to
90:22
reach what can we aspire to how does it
90:25
express itself what are the unique
90:27
features of it
90:31
yes you me yes it's a question for both
90:33
of you your question has released
90:37
several responses the human beings have
90:40
reached the highest levels of what you
90:43
call holy silence who do not manifest
90:47
this and you will never find out that's
90:50
not their function it's to be now that's
90:54
it other human beings whose function it
90:57
is to manifest that in this world and
91:00
your question really pertains to the
91:01
second category usually people like that
91:05
first of all there is a kind of
91:07
certitude in their world an attraction
91:11
the word it confirms the famous Persian
91:14
proverb that a word that comes from the
91:16
heart settled upon the heart but somehow
91:19
the words even the sentences the grammar
91:21
will be similar to someone else's but it
91:24
settled upon one heart is an inner
91:26
attraction for it
91:28
secondly there are usually people who
91:32
have a perception that goes beyond the
91:35
immediate perception of things not all
91:39
of them are great metaphysician
91:40
necessarily but their spiritual beings
91:42
the spiritual being always sees
91:45
everything in the Venus there is a
91:47
perfume of the sacred in everything as
91:49
he just pointed out in another context
91:52
I'm quite complete with what you said
91:54
the beginning there is such in the
91:57
secular world otherwise we wouldn't be
91:58
where we are but for the spiritual
92:00
person the perfume the sacred ism
92:03
present there so is able to present
92:05
sometimes even ordinary everyday
92:08
experiences in another light another
92:12
like there's so many stories of great
92:15
Sufi teachers walking the street in the
92:17
bazaar or something like that with some
92:18
of the disciples and you know man comes
92:20
along with the donkey and passes by and
92:22
nobody knows it but he has a spiritual
92:24
lesson which is disciples because of
92:26
that and a great teacher is not one who
92:30
only speaks about a pure full sovereign
92:33
metaphysical ideas but is able to
92:35
express the deepest meaning in the most
92:38
everyday common experiences eating lunch
92:43
drinking water what
92:45
in the street one can't expound the
92:47
deepest truth from anything I once had a
92:50
great teacher in Iran was very funny he
92:53
said so and so you said all these years
92:55
of studies and so on and so on if you're
92:57
gonna explain the whole of metaphysics
92:58
through eating Persian rice then you
93:01
really reach some station so it's a kind
93:04
of what is much emphasized in Zen a kind
93:09
of extraordinary ordinariness there's no
93:13
haughtiness involved in it the humility
93:16
that's always involved in it it's very
93:18
very different when someone who just
93:20
talks about these things there has to be
93:22
in that person a presence and there's an
93:26
all human beings a sixth sense of
93:29
sensing the presence of the sacred it
93:32
may be weak some people are don't have
93:34
good ears for music some people are
93:36
wonderful years for music but the ears
93:37
always there somebody and there must be
93:40
that sense of presence without which
93:43
what you say has not become actualized
93:46
anybody could pick up the book and read
93:48
it on their go punished read and
93:49
repeated like him that markable passers
93:52
beautiful passes are coated but when
93:54
someone really means to be there that's
93:57
quite something else and there's always
93:59
an existential effect to suppliant all
94:03
knowledge that is realized absolutely
94:06
there is no perfume without aroma
94:09
that's impossible there is no candle
94:12
that does not catch some light which
94:15
does not negate what I said at the
94:16
beginning that there are some creatures
94:18
in the world whom God chosen already for
94:20
himself in a sense and they are there
94:23
but we do not know but they play a
94:26
cosmic role they play a role in the
94:28
equilibrium the world which is another
94:29
story about not getting to some eg it's
94:36
in in the Vedanta tradition and Swami
94:39
Vivekanand the tortoise that brought
94:42
once again to the for the depending on
94:46
your mental disposition you had
94:49
different parts but the karma and Raja
94:53
yoga
94:55
and I hear so much about complementarity
95:00
surely there are different parts given
95:05
to different people in terms of maybe
95:09
the social contexts in which they live
95:14
the mental dispositions they have the
95:18
need for different mental diets in order
95:21
to reach this goal so do you see any
95:26
differences well I differences it's too
95:28
emphatic a word but let's see no ances
95:31
in terms of the sufi articulation of the
95:36
path and the aspiration and elements in
95:39
vedanta yes a good question and I I
95:44
don't see a difference I do see a nuance
95:48
and that's why you can read a Sufi text
95:51
and recognize this is a Sufi text and
95:53
you can read a bit antic text and
95:55
recognize this as a Vedantic text
95:56
otherwise they would sort of melt
95:59
together and you wouldn't know what you
96:01
were dealing with and of course it's
96:03
more than just the more than just the
96:05
terms but I find I have to say with the
96:08
with the the soufiane I mean back up and
96:12
say that I deeply appreciate what dr.
96:16
Nasser said at the very beginning then
96:18
it's a danger to separate Sufism from
96:21
Islam it can't be separated from Islam
96:22
so
96:24
when I have used the term soupy let me
96:26
refer that I'm speaking of the mystical
96:30
dimension of Islam only that when I read
96:33
a mystical Islamic text that there is a
96:37
there's a I have not yet found a passage
96:41
where I say no that's not true
96:43
no this is wrong I find it an expression
96:47
of truth and what is inspiring to me and
96:50
helpful to me in my spiritual life is
96:52
that when I read it I find that oh
96:55
that's that's a new way of looking at
97:00
this the truth that I had been looking
97:01
at from a different perspective the
97:03
reason why two eyes give us depths of
97:07
vision is because of the slight angle
97:09
between the two air are two is we the
97:12
distance between the two eyes that
97:13
allows me to see depth and so when I can
97:16
see in a tradition like the Sufi
97:18
tradition which has so many parallels
97:20
with the Vedanta or me Dante has so many
97:23
parallels with it then it it's an
97:27
experience of beauty for me and not a
97:29
not an experience of contrast and
97:31
certainly not different one other thing
97:35
that they're one of my teachers a Hindu
97:37
Swami of course I've never been outside
97:40
of India but he told me many years ago
97:43
that you should read the lives of Sufi
97:48
Saints and the lives of Christian saints
97:50
that you'll get great value from north
97:52
and that that is true but my other point
97:56
to this person is very much to his order
97:59
that Blanche to Ramakrishna order if you
98:02
won't talk about nuances especially
98:06
later history of India when ramanuja
98:08
came upon the scene the distinction
98:11
between jinan and bhakti forms of
98:13
spirituality became much more distinct
98:15
in Hinduism and they're more bound
98:18
together in Sufism you don't have pure
98:21
bhakti Sufism
98:22
I got pure bhakti Hinduism and even pure
98:27
jinan are the forms of Sufism have a
98:29
bockting elemental if you're going to
98:31
Douglas asked returned was the great
98:33
Ramakrishna who tried to reintegrate
98:35
these in the consciousness of Hindus
98:37
again and his view from that point of
98:39
view was very close to Suez I mean he
98:41
knew it it said that to some of his
98:43
colleagues and friends because you know
98:45
for a while he was practicing Sufism in
98:47
Ben garland so this is an interesting
98:50
point of comparison between these two
98:52
great traditions in fact in the case of
98:56
sri ramakrishna of course that he
98:59
actually engaged in the practices of
99:03
different traditions as micro charities
99:06
Lama as much as for his own education
99:10
and his own growth and understanding as
99:12
even though he's regarded as enough
99:15
thought but I believe equally to send
99:18
out a signal to the rest of the world
99:20
that he did this in in and in public or
99:23
albeit outside the temple precincts that
99:25
look well I would I would change that a
99:30
little bit and say that as the holy
99:32
mother Ramakrishna's wife's in the
99:34
Ramakrishna didn't do that with with any
99:37
idea of of teaching others it was a
99:40
spontaneous love for for the divine in
99:44
any way that it could be experienced and
99:46
so the teaching was there the example
99:49
was there and is there and the example
99:50
is there but I don't think that there
99:53
was a not that you were saying it this
99:55
way but I want to make this distinction
99:56
that there was no premeditation that I'm
99:59
going to teach this to the world welcome
100:00
so that was distinctly absolute there
100:03
was just this idea that oh god can be
100:05
experienced in this way - let me throw
100:07
myself into it at the at the practical
100:11
level for for those of us who are
100:14
exposed to abide diversity of religious
100:18
philosophical and spiritual traditions
100:21
and sometimes we naturally gravitate to
100:24
one as opposed to or instead of
100:29
the other and we also see in in terms of
100:34
the secular and attempt to take little
100:37
bits from different traditions you know
100:41
through a brand of spiritual tourism
100:43
where you collect artifacts and pieces
100:46
of practice surely there is there is a
100:51
value and you mentioned that you know
100:53
these are traditions that have survived
100:55
thousands of years and and and that is
100:58
the demonstration you know more than
101:00
anything else that it works and there is
101:03
a value to it so in in in in in in
101:09
today's era how dynamic how necessary is
101:13
it for spiritual traditions to evolve to
101:17
meet the current predicaments and needs
101:21
of aspirants without diluting the core
101:26
so that they can respond to contemporary
101:31
issues that come up and and traditions
101:35
such as that that you so beautifully
101:37
articulated and the more metaphysical
101:39
aspects of Atlanta of course rise above
101:42
it and so you go into a much larger
101:45
metaphysical realm but for us to access
101:48
that you know the points of entry are
101:50
still pretty mundane and so how do we
101:54
navigate that journey it's a very very
101:56
Cardinal question when JEB Rahul not
102:00
Nehru was still alive it was a prime
102:02
minister of India the Indian government
102:05
decided they wanted to change Muslim
102:07
Personal Law in India nothing too
102:09
personal Muslim Personal Law and they
102:11
faked the very big conference in
102:13
National Congress major scholars all
102:14
over all of whom came to confirm that
102:17
would be all right to change the Islamic
102:18
personal law and unfortunately for India
102:21
they also invited me and I undid the
102:23
whole thing and that's what Niro had his
102:25
heart attack was sitting right there in
102:26
the front row and there Gandhi took him
102:29
out and died a few months later not that
102:31
I caused his death
102:34
but what I said it like conference was
102:38
that if you have to change with the
102:39
times
102:40
what do the times have to change with
102:42
the notion that we have to change the
102:45
religions of the world in order to
102:47
conform to the so-called realities of
102:50
everyday life or our times forgets the
102:53
fact that upon what principles should
102:56
society itself change what determines at
102:59
times this is one of the greatest errors
103:01
of the modern world from the point of us
103:03
someone like myself as a traditionalist
103:05
we reject all the errors of modernism
103:07
going back to the Renaissance the
103:09
promise of rationalism over real
103:12
intellectual understanding of reality
103:14
individualism over the universal on so
103:16
many other things but which all the
103:18
traditional writers have written we
103:20
believe that the great religions of the
103:23
world are a gift from heaven and the
103:27
world is to be made in conformity with
103:29
them not they with the world having said
103:33
that however as squares over square you
103:36
cannot reform a square in every square
103:39
cannot evolve into a better square
103:41
that's absurd and much a modern thinking
103:44
is pure absurdity good sophistry but
103:47
putting that aside the fact that God is
103:49
will that these religions still around
103:51
and God is also will to have a humanity
103:54
that we have before are there today
103:57
either those religions are no wrong a
103:59
little relevant to this humanity or
104:03
they're relevant but this humanity
104:06
doesn't need religion and it's going to
104:07
do something else we're going to
104:08
disappear it's going to die out they
104:10
have several possibilities one is that
104:12
we're at the end of the world which is
104:13
of course the very strong possibility
104:15
that Hindus Muslims Christians many
104:17
according to their own scriptures
104:19
believe that we're not far away from
104:21
that I don't want to get it as close of
104:22
discussions now but one is that
104:25
therefore the people don't follow
104:26
religion at all the reason themselves
104:28
predicted it's the book of John the end
104:30
of the Quran and hadith and so on and so
104:32
of course all these Hindu texts of the
104:35
third century the piranhas you know much
104:37
better than I do the second possibility
104:39
is that as long as these religions are
104:42
alive God wants to keep them alive and
104:44
therefore the must have the effort
104:47
see because God's mercy will not allow
104:50
humanity to exist without any path of
104:52
salvation but still have the efficacy
104:54
for those human beings who live at the
104:56
present moment and I believe that all
104:59
the great spiritual paths are given by
105:01
God is creative plasticity to be able to
105:05
apply themselves to no matter what time
105:07
no matter what place you can practice
105:10
Sufism right here in Louisville as you
105:13
can in Mecca face the most difficult
105:15
place to try practice because of these
105:17
heathens who are ruling over there but
105:19
that's which I won't get into that
105:20
discussion but I cannot avoid saying
105:24
some of them there were a hundred storey
105:26
building next to the house of God what
105:27
can one say
105:28
but any other Islamic city you can
105:31
practice Sufism anywhere but not by
105:34
diluting it but by applying it to the
105:37
particular human condition in which we
105:39
find ourselves in the old days you know
105:42
would take you about two hours to go
105:43
with your donkey from your house to the
105:46
bazaar a place of work or the mosque
105:48
there are two hours to pray on the way
105:50
now you're stuck in 495 traffic around
105:53
Washington well you have to curse the
105:56
devil and sword and so to get out of it
105:57
it's very hard to keep control your
105:59
anger so obviously it still takes two
106:01
hours of course it's really improved but
106:06
you're a set of anger and frustration
106:08
all the time so you need other spiritual
106:11
means you're not relaxed as you were
106:13
going slow that you're drunk you're
106:15
horseback at some Indian or Persian City
106:17
so the conditions yes have changed but
106:20
as far as I know the great traditions I
106:22
have kept alive not only shoes them in
106:24
Islam said the path of Hinduism Buddhism
106:26
even he's a caste Christianity in the
106:29
Western Christian tradition most of the
106:31
spiritual path died out Merton was
106:33
trying to revive it and Catholicism of
106:36
course not the completely died out the
106:37
very difficult in all of his traditions
106:40
it is possible to apply it
106:42
I'm not hopeless and I tell you this to
106:45
you from experience a person who's not
106:48
only asked all of these fears of
106:49
something to do with them immersed in it
106:51
and I've seen it practiced by people as
106:53
different as children of divorces from
106:56
San Francisco to son of Allah ma and
107:00
and everything in between and that
107:02
couldn't happen and I'm sure it's true
107:04
of other tradition the fact that he's
107:05
sitting here is itself that he is not
107:08
born into the Hindu caste system he's a
107:11
westerner he's entered into the Hindu
107:13
spiritual world this would not have been
107:15
done a thousand years ago Hindus the
107:17
moon are permitted it is a point a kind
107:20
of divine compensation and I bring to
107:23
the tremendous danger because it brings
107:25
me the possibility of caricatures
107:27
distortions false gurus false
107:31
eclecticism which are one of the great
107:33
problems of our world today in which I
107:35
just say you take a little bit here a
107:36
little bit here you're making yourself
107:39
ultimately the god or the prophet
107:41
without saying so that so-called guru is
107:43
now the prophet because he's decided to
107:45
choose this part of Hinduism this part
107:47
of Islam's part of Christianity and that
107:49
I think is total nonsense very dangerous
107:52
demonic it's a satanic thing more than
107:54
something satanic because if another
107:57
Kumaraswamy said all paths lead to the
107:59
same summit you cannot jump from one
108:02
path for two feet and then go to the
108:04
other path and jump back again you'll
108:05
never get to the summit I'm posed most
108:07
like you'll fall down and break your
108:09
neck in between so we're in a world in
108:11
which a tremendous danger of pseudo
108:13
spirituality it's now echoed back into
108:17
the Oriental world it first occurred
108:19
back into Japan you had which was the
108:22
most modernized oriental country Society
108:25
after Second World War II we had began
108:27
to get pseudo Zen you had then anti Zen
108:29
pseudo Zen then it came in your country
108:32
in India all pseudo gurus and so what
108:35
began to appear now appear in the
108:36
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