Sacred Silence in Sufism and the Vedanta

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May 27, 2013

           hello to everybody out there hello hello

00:03

how are you all everybody doing all

00:05

right well that's good to hear and thank

00:09

you so much for coming to this

00:10

afternoon's session welcome to the 2013

00:15

festival of faiths with the title you

00:18

know sacred silence pathway to

00:20

compassion we are so pleased

00:23

I can hardly I mean it's just hard to

00:24

believe the whole thing is really like a

00:26

dream that we have had program after

00:29

program of the most inspiring kinds of

00:33

sessions I don't even want to call them

00:35

talks because they've just been these

00:37

experiences that have been deeply

00:41

helpful as a word that I think of and

00:43

and very profound on many levels so

00:46

thank you all for being a part of it and

00:49

of course thanks so much to our speakers

00:52

our distinguished speakers who have

00:54

really come from all over the world to

00:56

be here right here in Louisville

00:58

Kentucky which feels somehow all very

01:01

natural and appropriate and just right

01:04

but a huge thanks to them for coming

01:08

this long way and many of you in the

01:09

audience have come from far far away

01:12

including my dear mother-in-law has just

01:14

arrived from Argentina and and other

01:16

Argentines and it's just in swedes and

01:19

one from hong kong coming so anyway it's

01:22

just fabulous to be with you all as you

01:26

know to put on an event like this

01:27

requires a lot of help and it would just

01:30

be impossible not to thank those that

01:32

are so involved including our office led

01:35

by dr. Kathleen Lyons and Sarah Reed

01:39

Harris and Chris Wooten we've also

01:41

received huge support from the community

01:44

at large as many of you know this

01:48

particular festival is being put on at

01:50

the request of the mayor who was with us

01:52

this morning and has been with us for

01:54

many of the sessions and has his own

01:56

session coming up on well tomorrow night

01:59

actually and and all of it is is

02:03

completely connected in as much as his

02:06

session is very much inspired by all of

02:10

the sessions that have happened thus far

02:11

so please come to

02:13

tomorrow night if you can and for any of

02:14

the other sessions we have ahead of us

02:17

all of which are listed in our program

02:20

we have also received big support and

02:23

it's just quick quick for us to mention

02:25

brown-forman corporation the Archdiocese

02:29

of Louisville the earth and spirit

02:31

center the Muhammad Ali center

02:32

Louisville public media drape and go

02:36

Hmong Institute which is the host

02:37

organization for the Dalai Lama visit

02:39

which is starting Sunday afternoon

02:40

Thomas Merton center founds Vita Thank

02:43

You grey compassionate Louisville which

02:46

is having its own series of events going

02:48

on right now parallel to these which is

02:51

also very exciting the idea festival

02:53

fowl Jones and the whiskey row lofts and

02:55

also Christy Brown lastly I'll just

02:59

mention a well two things one is there

03:02

is a flyer that I have been I think

03:05

inaccurately attributing to one single

03:08

individual it turns out not surprisingly

03:10

that this great flyer is is the work of

03:13

a whole lot of individuals and there's a

03:15

note that I haven't quite I don't have

03:17

on me to reference exactly who but if

03:19

you're among us you know how great a

03:21

gift it is that you've given us which is

03:23

a sheet talking about meditation

03:25

opportunities and contemplative

03:27

practices in Louisville and it's listed

03:30

in in various ways including by way of

03:33

traditions Buddhist Christian

03:35

inter-religious non-denominational and

03:38

they're out in the hall along with all

03:40

the other goodies please take one of

03:42

these if it's of interest to you

03:44

lastly I'll just talk about the forum

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we're going to before we introduce our

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speakers which gray will do we will

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after you introduce the speakers I will

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be the timekeeper for a session of

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silence and then Rajeev I think you've

04:00

agreed at the end too and I'll place the

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the gong and so maybe when you hear the

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gong you can all help me in welcoming

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our guest to the stage at the end of the

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silent session that we'll start with now

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and for those of you who don't know I am

04:18

honored to introduce to you my co

04:19

programmer and dear friend gray Henry

04:29

we're very very very fortunate to have

04:32

doctors say to st. Nasser with us this

04:35

afternoon

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I mean he's we've tried for so many

04:38

years to have him back he came when we

04:40

did the Merton and sufism Congress many

04:43

years ago he was one of our major

04:45

speakers but the monks at Gethsemane the

04:47

Cathedral Heritage Foundation we've been

04:50

trying to bring him back to his Kentucky

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home for a long time

04:54

beginning in Iran where he headed the

04:57

Imperial Academy of philosophy and

04:59

science having studied at Harvard he

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then finally returned to America where

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he teaches at George Washington

05:05

University he's one of the greatest

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scholars of islamic spirituality and

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islam in general in the world today and

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we are supremely grateful to have his

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company also today we have we have swami

05:21

but from Aruba nan de I pronounced it

05:24

correctly who's come all the way from

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Calcutta where he resides in a monastery

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devoted to Ramakrishna he's discovered

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that Vedanta tradition of Hinduism as a

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student in Sweden and joined the

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Ramakrishna order at the age of 19 and

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later spent many years in India engaged

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in monastic scholarly and spiritual

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training where he lives today he's a

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founding member of the spiritual

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alliance convened by the Global Peace

05:53

Initiative for women and a participant

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in its ongoing Sufi Yogi and Hindu

05:59

Buddhist dialogues also we will have on

06:04

stage with us the moderator Rajiv Mehra

06:07

I am forgetting how to pronounce your

06:09

name Rajiv let me give it a try

06:13

mmm mater atre um my goodness let's just

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say he is a disciple of His Holiness the

06:23

Dalai Lama and when the Dalai Lama

06:26

received his Nobel Prize funds he gave

06:30

them to Rajiv to set up the institute

06:32

for human responsibility Rajiv is also a

06:34

filmmaker and they

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head of an incredible filmmaking

06:38

situation in Delhi where he makes

06:41

programmes and interview some of the

06:44

greatest spiritual masters alive and not

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alive and we are very fortunate to have

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him as a moderator today

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thank you very much

06:53

[Applause]

11:09

please join me in welcoming our speakers

11:12

to the stage

11:14

[Applause]

11:57

could I in like Swami atmospheric

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remember to speak not necessarily

12:27

in the name of God the one some Darkman

12:30

Rahim I begin with the traditional

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Muslim prayer for the opening of all

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things the prayer that precisely

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emanates from the silent one and returns

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unto Him apparently we're going to each

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speak about 40 minutes after which we'll

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have a discourse with each other and

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then there'll be questions and answers

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also from the audience the few words

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that I shall say are based on the

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Islamic perspective and with Islam being

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perspective on Sufism they're not

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personal ruminations there based on a

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long tradition of understanding the

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relation between silence and compassion

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which is based on the analysis of the

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levels of the self of who we are and

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where we come from and where we're going

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I want to first of all make clear there

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are some things I have to make clear

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there's been too much discussion in many

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circles in the West about the say

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Christianity and Sufism Buddhism and

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Sufism and so forth this is not correct

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but Sufism is a aspect of Islam it's

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like saying a comparison between Islam

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on Trappist monks Travis monks are part

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of Catholicism Catholicism part of

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Christianity and Sufism

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is the inner spiritual contemplative

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dimension of the Islamic religion and

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same for the Vedanta as everybody loved

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what Dante nobody loves to study the

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laws of Manu but Vedanta is part of

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Hinduism and to do it justice one has to

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understand in the context of the great

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tradition that Hinduism is that's not my

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responsibility to discuss the other one

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is as far as these two perspectives are

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concerned which is the subject of this

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afternoon's session that is Sufism of

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the Vedanta it sure presents the

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interior as a CEREC dimension of the two

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great religions

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met side by side in the South kind of

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India from the seventh eighth Christian

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century onward that is Hinduism and

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Islam and it's ruined the centuries that

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followed was a remarkable prosity of

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presence of discourse of exchange

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between the highest representatives of

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the two traditions no one has as yet

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written fully about the interaction

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between the Vedanta and Sufism over the

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centuries but just to give you one small

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example the West would not have known

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about the Vedanta and Upanishads had it

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not been for the translation of

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Upanishads by a Sufi who was also Prince

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Dhara shoku into Persia and was this

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translation I was Lester translating to

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Latin by Uncle to Tokyo and presented to

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Napoleon 1804 and found its way to

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Europe and it started all the interest

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in Hinduism a very very few people know

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that as a remark this is a remarkable

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chapter of the spiritual history of

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humanity they exchanged between Sufism

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and the Vedanta of course that's not

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going to be the subject for my brief

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discourse it's a long long story but I

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thought you should at least know about

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it for centuries great sages have sat

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from different to the two traditions and

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carried a discourse together but since

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the subject of this conference was

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silence now I'm forced to tell you a

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personal account I hardly ever do so

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when I give a lecture but I shall do so

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now in 1973 I went to Madras where the

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International Congress of philosophy was

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being held in India I was to give a

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major philosophical address but I know

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that the greatest living authority of

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the Vedanta the Shankar Acharya of

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Kanchipuram the old Shankar Acharya was

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living in country near Madras so I asked

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for some Mahadevan the great Indian

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philosopher was a disciple to arrange

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for me to see him and he accepted he

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arranged for me to go and see him and I

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went to a garden about 50

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two kilometers away from Madras and I

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was wearing completed as a traditional

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Slavic dress and they put in this

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beautiful garden on a Persian carpet and

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a sat cross-legged waiting for some time

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and after a while the Shankaracharya I

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came in but the staff in the sound of a

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sannyasin which never was put on the

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ground with two eyes that were more

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brilliant than the Sun and of course I

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being a Malaya not being Hindu we could

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not come close to me and I respect that

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of course very much among traditional or

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the last person and I'm not a 19th

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century modernist and in any form

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whatsoever I respected that very much I

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was not offended was very happy but he

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came close as he could and he sat down

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like the Hindu said do without his back

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touching the ground but just sitting on

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the ground which most Westerners could

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not do for more than 30 seconds without

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falling down the ground or hurting their

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knees don't try it but they can sit for

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hours doing this he said like this and a

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man came from him and he said his

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Shankara is observing the fast of

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silence he will only speak to you in

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silence so for about eight minutes eight

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minutes he and I just looked into each

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other's eyes I've had many many

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religious discourses with the Pope's and

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bishops and rabbis and great Buddhist

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Zen masters you name it 50 years I've

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been doing this this was perhaps the

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most profound religious discourse I'd

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ever experienced after the administer

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over he made some sign language the

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person and the person came to me and

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said the Shankara is so happy that the

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deepest truths of the Vedanta are

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confirmed by the deepest truth of Sufism

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and that that is what silence really

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means but on that level to practice

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silence is not an easy thing and if I

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can maybe a little bit critical of

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ourselves I must mention that to talk

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about silence in relation to

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spirituality because must not only think

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about sound you must think of the

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clutter that goes on inside us both the

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power of the mind

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that is concepts that come one after

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another on the power of images in our

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imaginal faculty there are two different

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noise systems within us one is images

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that come and go and what his thoughts

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that come and go we have no control over

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them and you have to be a great Saint to

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be able to quiet them down all of the

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techniques and methods of all religions

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have further ultimate and I mean

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spiritual techniques to bring about this

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inner silence silence does not only mean

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not speaking out that's only a small

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part of this this inner silence which is

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so difficult to attain now this is the

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supreme goal of both Sufism and the

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Vedanta obviously if there's to be a

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comparison between the two and I'm not

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going to make a more comparative

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statements except this usually of course

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in the Vedanta other people describe

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Brahman the supreme metaphysics is based

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on the pure subject admin the pure self

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so the absolute reality is envisioned in

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terms of the pure subject and in most

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Sufism absolute reality is envisaged as

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the pure object now the pure subject is

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ultimately nothing other than the pure

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object the purely transcendence is the

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purely imminent and metaphysically the

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same perhaps no other modern writer has

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made that as clear at the later field of

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chuan who's buried a few miles from here

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or at one of the most incredible essays

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that were written in the European

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languages on the relationship between

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Vedanta and Sylvia where he brings this

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issue out so it's not a difference of

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two different metaphysics different

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formulation of the same reality that is

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either we are attached to the altar and

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the diverges beyond ourselves or that

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was ultimately ourselves the deeper

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sense but both employ a be honest both

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employed be honest and in order to come

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to that and understand that we must

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understand the structure of the soul my

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dear for a great Henry who has done so

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much for the city and for the

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conference and she's not my sister and

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only person who can order me around in

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the world another person here because of

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her she asked me to speak about this

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question of the self and so I thought I

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would dovetailed my analysis of the

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relationship between silence and

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compassion to this question of the self

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okay that is the key that is the key to

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realize be honest if I can use such a

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term in English either

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are being completely beyond as other or

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completely beyond as sane and self an

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inward we have to understand what you

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have to go beyond why would you have to

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go beyond what is it we have to go

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beyond now we begin all of us all of us

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human beings have been given

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consciousness we begin with the self as

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inner reality experiential reality the

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most direct we are identify ourselves

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with this particular bundle of sphere of

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impressions thoughts and so forth which

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is myself and unfortunately in this

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stage of what the Hindu who called the

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Kali Yuga in this stage of the dark

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period of history especially we are

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almost born with complete imprisonment

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in this state of selfishness in the

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negative sense the sense of utter on but

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small self and most of us live through a

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life like that but the cosmic physically

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speaking the self is not a totally

22:54

independent being there's always a crack

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in its wall somewhere there's always

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something beyond it

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that's why selfishness will not bring

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happiness ultimately because it is not

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ontologically independent metaphysically

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speaking it's not being completely

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independent unto itself no self can be

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happy by simply being itself no matter

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how it tries to satisfy the appetites

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which never end which is another sign of

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the fact that it has an echo of the

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infinite

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the fact that we as human beings are

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never happy with simply having more and

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more quantitatively in contrast to a

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horse who eats food and monsters is it

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food is happy

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well our appetizers are not satiated

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because suddenly of the infinite is

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reflected in our selves small self

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family of Atman is reflected in that

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self so this self is there and even for

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ordinary people we realize that

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sometimes when let's say if you have

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gained a few pounds is said or have to

23:59

discipline myself who is being

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disciplined and who is disciplining so

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we already realized the famous saying of

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San Thomas Aquinas doors onto a nominee

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in Latin there are two within us there's

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not only one self there is more than one

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self and Sufism begins right here right

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here by pointing out that in fact we

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have many selves nafs in arabic nafs has

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many different meanings but one of them

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is this self ego and they're like

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sheaths there are like spheres

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concentric spheres one inside the other

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we begin with the nafs with the self

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with the ego then classical Arabic Azhar

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al maraa Basu that is which commands us

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to evil and what is evil but the

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privation of good have been limited in

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place of the unlimited and that's why

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were the wrong choices come from and

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therefore it is the ego which turns us

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away from the divine reality the ron

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arad is there it's the dark glass that

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prevents the Sun from shining within our

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being

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but as I said the first stage of

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perfection is the realization that this

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is not ready us so the first stage is a

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higher attainment of the self which is

25:25

called enough Salah wama in Arabic which

25:28

means the blaming soul the soul that is

25:31

able to blame itself as soon as you say

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I blame myself for having said this

25:37

unkind word to my friend that I

25:40

in that sentence is not the same that

25:43

was blaming the friend saying the unkind

25:45

words it's an it's an hire I within us

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that is able to blame itself that's the

25:51

first stage of spiritual profession of

25:54

going beyond the limitations of the

25:56

human substance the human ego the human

25:59

state is the realization of being able

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to blame ourselves to see our own faults

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and once we do that gradually be tried

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to overcome these false now how this

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happens I'm not going to go into the

26:15

question God is not simply a

26:17

rationalistic ethics have we read a book

26:19

of ethics and correct ourselves the soul

26:22

cannot be corrected without the grace of

26:24

God and speaking Abrahamic terms without

26:26

religion without tradition and even in

26:29

Buddhism which does not have a theistic

26:30

view of the divine reality without the

26:33

compassion of the Buddha why otherwise

26:36

with the Buddhism without the Buddha but

26:38

there's no Buddhism without the Buddha

26:39

and certainly in Hinduism it's

26:41

emphasized as much as the Abrahamic

26:43

religion so the Meuse around Abrahamic

26:45

terms say our own most of the people he

26:47

remember having families we have I know

26:49

Hindus and Buddhists and so forth but

26:51

anyway let me use this language which we

26:53

all understand this transformation

26:57

cannot take place by itself

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there has to be what Christian will call

27:03

grace Muslims will call Grace Baraka

27:06

fade divine succor divine help without

27:11

which even the blame ourselves we will

27:14

not be able to cure ourselves from the

27:16

blemishes that we have that's a very

27:18

very difficult thing very very difficult

27:20

thing to do much more difficult than

27:22

getting 10 PhDs in physics or another

27:25

sub gender from the best universities

27:27

much more difficult and once we attain

27:31

that however once we are able to heal

27:33

those errors of the soul the solar

27:38

surface transformed alchemically like

27:40

base metal into gold into what is called

27:42

NASA motto and now that is the soul the

27:46

rest in peace the rest and divine peace

27:50

and this is the peace from which

27:53

emanates compassion

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this is the point where Islam and

27:58

Buddhism also have a lot in common you

28:01

always have these images of the Buddha

28:03

which have tremendous peace in I mean

28:05

traditional images whether Japanese a

28:08

sri lankan from Theravada or Mahayana or

28:11

of course was Ryan our school in Tibet

28:13

are the most beautiful images they're

28:15

always a remark or element apiece but

28:18

combined with compassion and compassion

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issues at this level of the soul and

28:25

once one reaches that then one which is

28:28

the highest level according to Sufism

28:30

which is naphtha radhiya tan mariathon

28:33

as the Quran says that is the soul that

28:35

is both satisfied with God and God is

28:39

satisfied with it that is the highest

28:42

attainment that was satisfied here

28:44

rather from which comes so many Arabic

28:47

names like the word red Ahmadi and so on

28:49

and so on is a very profound virtue to

28:52

be able to be satisfied we are

28:55

dissatisfied human beings we cannot be

28:57

satisfied they cannot go become

29:00

satisfied unless we are able to try to

29:02

go through these steps a perfection to

29:06

gradually attain the state beyond the

29:09

limitations of the ego is a great

29:12

mystery of the human state which all

29:15

religions have emphasized is that the

29:22

human state needs something beyond

29:26

itself in order to be human to deny the

29:33

divine element in human beings is to

29:37

live below the human and Sufism

29:40

emphasizes that every religion

29:42

emphasizes that and she was always the

29:45

door within Islam for not only talking

29:47

about this but also attaining it now to

29:51

attain that stage is to realize the

29:54

truth that the Quran mentions and says

29:56

verily we created you from a single soul

30:00

nav stonewash God says that we created

30:02

all human beings from a single soul but

30:06

that we are not aware of that

30:07

usually that is the origin of compassion

30:10

compassion is not simply sentimentality

30:14

tomorrow one issue I'm going to talk

30:16

about it is in compassion and truth

30:18

which we often times negates and deny

30:21

and neglect to the very great cost to

30:24

humanity I shall say something about

30:26

that tomorrow but let me just say here

30:28

that compassion are only sentimentality

30:30

it is that includes good sentiments good

30:33

sentiments are fine it's not just feel

30:36

good by giving a dollar to some poor

30:38

person in the street it's much more

30:40

profound than that compassion is to be

30:43

true to ourselves true to ourselves to

30:47

be our real self why because once we

30:50

transcend all the limited levels of the

30:52

self and attain the highest state of

30:55

itself we realize what the piranha that

30:58

were created from a single soul that in

31:02

fact myself is the self of all selves so

31:07

true charity is helping myself no

31:11

industries of hoarding all the wealth of

31:13

others that's to become imprisoned in

31:15

that ego which am trying to escape from

31:19

but to realize that to give is also to

31:23

receive that's what Christ said is more

31:24

blessed to give than to receive

31:26

because in giving we realize ourselves

31:29

much more than in receiving and this is

31:32

not at all sentiment it's made pure by

31:35

the physics it's a science it's based on

31:38

the reality that first of all ultimately

31:41

all of us in the deeper sense are one

31:44

soul or instead nafsan Barford a single

31:47

soul secondly in helping others in being

31:53

charitable towards others

31:55

in showing compassion for others will be

31:58

cool too the only thing that is ready to

32:00

in us that is the supreme self the only

32:04

thing that is really real in us the only

32:06

that's true in us is the supreme self

32:09

everything else is Maya as shadow is

32:11

half truth illusion whatever term you

32:15

want to use

32:15

I don't impure illusion Maya is not pure

32:18

illusion is all the divine play as or an

32:20

Akuma

32:20

some said but usually translate illusion

32:23

but anyway it's not ultimate reality the

32:26

owners ultimately real is the divine

32:29

self in us and so this compassion really

32:33

is to be oneself and to be truly oneself

32:38

to be real the only way we can be real

32:40

is to be compassionate in the deepest

32:44

sense metaphysical sense of the term and

32:46

we have to introduce this intellectual

32:48

spiritual element into something which

32:51

appears to many people to be simple

32:53

emotions even the emotions God has put

32:56

in our heart because the emotions also

32:59

reflect deeper levels of our being the

33:02

fact that good people are charitable is

33:04

not accidental it's related to the to

33:08

goodness because goodness is what takes

33:10

us away from their confines of the ego

33:13

which orders us to do evil as we say al

33:18

Amara Basu now they're usually several

33:27

ways are breaking the walls of the ego

33:31

chorus for very different ways that's

33:34

why I had different forms of yoga and

33:35

Hinduism different paths and Buddhism in

33:40

Islam and Christianity some religions

33:42

emphasize one more some others I don't

33:45

want to into it you know compared to

33:47

religion now Judaism for azan had a path

33:50

of knowledge in the Kabbalah which is

33:51

much more accentuated that Christian

33:54

path was mostly the path of love but

33:56

path of love is not absent in Judaism

33:58

knows the path of knowledge and

34:00

Christianity and silver than some could

34:02

go down the line now just turning to

34:05

Islam but these are comments already

34:08

pertain to other religions as well the

34:11

several ways that we can come overcome

34:15

the walls of the ego and the first

34:19

question of course the mark up why do we

34:20

have to overcome walls of the ego you

34:23

have to overcome it because it

34:24

suffocates us because we suffer from it

34:27

the do car by the Buddha speaks has to

34:30

do precisely with this

34:32

if we could be happy in the prison of

34:34

the ego all religion would be useless

34:37

and for nobody would have followed over

34:40

the millennia anything has been followed

34:43

over the millennia must have had some

34:44

use other people wouldn't follow it your

34:47

honey didn't taste sweet not every

34:49

civilization will not have honey one way

34:51

or another nice diet this is the same

34:53

way this is a very very important point

34:56

so since we're not happy it cannot be

35:00

happy in this prison of the ego our

35:03

spirit is made for the infinite it's

35:05

made for the empyrion it's not made for

35:07

the bottom of a well since we are not

35:09

happy the several ways in which this

35:12

there is wall or borders of this limited

35:16

egos limited existence in which most of

35:19

us live can be removed there's not only

35:22

one one is of course through pure

35:25

knowledge pure knowledge the path of the

35:28

Vedanta which had the equivalents in

35:32

Sufism that is submental knowledge burns

35:36

through all of the limitations of

35:39

existence and leads ultimately to the

35:43

Sun which alone is not everyone however

35:48

is gifted with this attitude that

35:50

everyone can follow the path of pure

35:52

knowledge there's then the path of love

35:55

part of devotion and this path of

35:58

devotion is to go beyond our ego to give

36:02

ourselves and love this attachment

36:05

love means attachment whereas knowledge

36:09

overtimes employs detachment from some

36:12

things love organ is attachment the

36:14

object of love is what we're attached to

36:16

there's no such as detached love there's

36:20

no fire that does not burn now this is a

36:24

very very important element some people

36:26

would say the most important element of

36:28

possible spiritual paths or this ritual

36:32

love of humanity and that is the path of

36:35

love which is not only the love for God

36:37

but also love for all that comes from

36:40

God which means all of his creation and

36:42

here come in is to be found

36:46

real meaning of compassion the word

36:50

compassion and Latin comes from two

36:52

words come

36:53

which means together pathos from Greek

36:58

pathos which means pain pain originally

37:03

pathology you have a medicine but also

37:07

it means elation of the soul it means

37:10

movement of the soul and the deepest

37:14

sense compassion means feeling the pains

37:18

of others and deepest sense that

37:22

illogical that's what the word means but

37:25

how do why do we feel the pains of

37:27

others because the other is none other

37:29

than ourselves and he or she who does

37:34

not feel the pain of others

37:35

is living not only below the human state

37:39

but even below their own possibilities

37:42

that we are not fully human to be human

37:45

is to be attached to the whole of

37:47

existence

37:48

and I for one who was the first person

37:50

perhaps in the West to speak about the

37:52

environmental crisis when nobody spoke

37:54

about it in the 1950s and 60s and in

37:57

spiritual sources not only the pollution

38:00

of rivers like the risen about before I

38:04

wrote I want to emphasize that

38:06

compassion metaphysically spiritually

38:09

speaking should not only be towards

38:11

human beings and it should certainly not

38:14

only be towards our religion or our

38:17

family or our town or our streets and so

38:19

forth and so on most will have some

38:21

compassion even murderers have

38:23

compassion perhaps for the sister living

38:25

down the street and give her some money

38:26

but must be infinite there must be no

38:30

boundary to it and most important of all

38:32

is compassionate towards all creatures

38:34

one of the greatest lessons I think that

38:37

the modern Western learned from oriental

38:39

spirituality where this Hindu Buddhist

38:42

Islamic anything else

38:43

Taoist is that there is no completely

38:47

sharp line between the human and the

38:51

nonhuman I don't mean the Darwinian

38:52

sense the organism is a kind of

38:54

caricature of truth its truth and virtue

38:57

bernard agree

38:58

but I'm talking about the fact that the

39:02

value of existence is not only of human

39:05

beings we cannot sacrifice everything

39:08

for the sake of human beings nor is it

39:10

only in life we cannot sacrifice

39:12

mountains and rivers for the sake of

39:16

life in general they're all intertwined

39:20

together that's why when we destroy the

39:23

salinity of the ocean so called non

39:26

living water of the ocean we also affect

39:29

all the living things in it and destroy

39:32

them so this compassion is something

39:35

which is absolutely essential not for

39:38

the realization of the truth and for

39:40

keeping the world going without

39:42

compassion human beings cannot survive

39:45

we are now observing this before us

39:49

you're observing our own suicide because

39:52

of lack of compassion amid a physical

39:54

sense now that there are no

39:56

compassionate people around there are

39:59

Christians who go and open up hospitals

40:01

in Africa and they're very compassion

40:03

and a human level they have no interest

40:05

whatsoever in nature and other creatures

40:08

because they were never taught that in

40:10

school they were never taught that

40:12

Christianity thing to say about the

40:13

sacredness of nature so compassion and

40:16

deeper sense goes back to the

40:18

metaphysical structure of reality and in

40:22

the West itself and classical texts in

40:24

Middle Ages and Renaissance there were

40:26

certain flaws and theologians who wrote

40:29

about sympathia

40:31

and Latin sympathy sympathy is very very

40:36

profound as it was they said between all

40:38

creatures their sympathy the vertical

40:40

sympathy between heaven and earth every

40:43

creature on the earth and heaven that

40:45

celestial prototyped and on the earth

40:48

horizontal between all creatures

40:50

sympathy are means to feel the pain of

40:52

others they get again same word sim and

40:56

pathos root this root is the same and so

41:00

when we talk about silence and

41:05

compassion you must understand that this

41:08

is not a sentimental matter

41:11

it is to realize the nature of things on

41:14

why silence because silence is a symbol

41:21

of the origin before the cacophony began

41:27

and is more than a symbol it's a very

41:32

important point we could say everything

41:35

that we say about silence about lights

41:37

because light and sound are the two

41:39

fundamental phenomena which usually may

41:42

use of in all religious sects to

41:43

describe by the physical truth we don't

41:46

be taught much less about perfume

41:47

although occasionally for example an

41:49

Islamic hadith the Prophet spoke about

41:52

perfume but usually it's light and sound

41:55

and why is it that we always talk about

41:57

holy silence we don't talk about holy

42:01

darkness because if you talk about the

42:05

symbolism of light what corresponds to

42:08

silence and sound is darkness and light

42:11

and that darkness that darkness is there

42:16

in metaphysics Nicolas of crucifix a

42:18

billion Christian metaphysics and is

42:19

very very important in both Hinduism and

42:22

Islam you have the neither Brahman in

42:24

Hindu cosmology

42:26

I dare not speak about Hinduism with all

42:28

the great authorities from India here

42:30

but I'm a humble student of Hinduism

42:33

also I've studied for years at Harvard

42:36

and reading the words of Kumaraswamy and

42:37

going to India and very very humble sort

42:40

of never write about Hinduism because

42:41

that's not my field but I know they wish

42:43

about it that according to Hindu

42:45

cosmology the world is reabsorbed into

42:49

the reality of Brahman and then you have

42:51

the night of Brahma and which is just

42:53

pure darkness there's nothing it's a

42:55

nothing which is a no thing but it's

42:57

everything it's it's not a nothing it's

43:00

everything from which then the next day

43:02

a Brahman emanates the next cosmic cycle

43:05

and all the moment eras and you guzzles

43:07

over the so on and in Islam we have the

43:10

most beautiful images of a sin in any

43:12

poetry in Sufi poetry about the symbols

43:17

of night which is called black light the

43:21

light which is the is black because of

43:23

the excess

43:25

of its manifestation not because of

43:27

darkness but the excess of his glow and

43:31

there's this divine poem and Colchoneros

43:34

the secret Rose Garden of Shaba study my

43:37

favorite Sufi poet along the hoppers and

43:39

Rumi

43:40

who says you think of God in the world

43:43

is Shapiro Shan Mian aru's attareekh the

43:47

Persian poem and illuminate at night

43:49

amidst the dark day the day seems to us

43:53

to be luminous it is really dark was

43:56

also separation of the divine and the

43:57

night appears to be dark but it is

44:01

illuminated because it symbolizes a non

44:03

manifested silence in terms of light

44:06

rather than sound but why should we talk

44:08

about silence all the time because we

44:10

accept great sense cannot make light but

44:13

becoming sound that's the reason that's

44:17

the reason and so silence is also very

44:21

important of a practical point of view

44:22

from the way of reigning in in a sense

44:26

the whole cosmogonic process of

44:29

generation and returning it back to the

44:31

source to the principle and that is why

44:33

there's always an element of silence and

44:36

spiritual people don't forget that

44:40

according to every religion we are here

44:41

not because of silence but because of

44:43

sound going to Hindu metaphysics that

44:46

the sound ohm were not here we will not

44:48

be here the book of Johnson in the

44:50

beginning was the word it is the

44:52

beginning was silence and the world was

44:54

sociable Christ in Islam it says all a

44:57

lock on fire corn in the Quran God said

45:00

be and there was so we're here not

45:03

because of silence were here because of

45:04

divine sound this is very very important

45:07

to remember and so what is spiritual and

45:11

every spiritual path is this great

45:13

mystery that sound this sound sacred

45:17

sound brings us back to sacred silence

45:20

whereas the cacophony does not but we

45:24

come from silence but we are in sound

45:27

and so is through sound that we go back

45:30

to God and I believe that a lot of

45:33

Westerners who practice meditation

45:36

witnessed our combined

45:38

with an active element some nearly japa

45:42

or there will have very great difficulty

45:46

really getting to the source it so

45:49

there's a half of the process I don't

45:52

want to give it directed for others

45:55

that's done my business but you look at

45:58

the totality of things you realize that

46:00

as the Sufis say we have come into this

46:05

world through the word and it's by the

46:08

word that we shall leave this world and

46:10

the word here of course means the name

46:12

of God manifestation but you have

46:14

exactly same things and christianism in

46:16

Hinduism in Hinduism any references to

46:20

this and even in Buddhism were they're

46:24

not supposed to be a divinity in the

46:27

sense of Ishwara or Brahman or Allah or

46:29

something like that

46:30

nevertheless we all know the

46:32

significance of nimbu Tzu of various

46:35

forms of ejaculatory prayer especially

46:38

in later forms of Buddhism in China Zen

46:40

and Jewish in especially in Japan more

46:45

than Zen then rise a great deal and

46:48

silence but it does have certain forms

46:49

of ejaculatory prayers all of these

46:52

point to the fact that when we talk

46:55

about silence and compassion we must

46:58

understand what the silence is how do we

47:02

reach silence how to become quiet and

47:05

where are we

47:08

why is it that silence leads to

47:11

compassion and let me finish my time is

47:14

up

47:15

I was supposed to speak 40 minutes

47:17

exactly 48 minutes I'm an MIT graduate

47:21

you know I have to be very precise and

47:23

in matter but in mathematics I'm not

47:26

wandering wandering dervishes who speak

47:28

for four hours and set up for deployment

47:30

[Laughter]

47:33

we are in this world because the primal

47:37

silence was broken by the sacred silence

47:40

itself other words were in the world but

47:46

that prior primordial silence which

47:49

somehow always remains within the sound

47:51

of its own creation

47:52

had provided for us the means of

47:55

returning unto it through the divine

47:59

sound and one of the concomitant of this

48:02

is the realization of who we are and to

48:06

realize who we are must realize that our

48:10

self is the self of all selves and this

48:13

is the metaphysical foundation for all

48:16

compassion and so no matter how great a

48:18

manifestation one is how great our

48:20

thinker there is no gate to heaven

48:23

without compassion there is knows

48:26

blessed soul with our silence thank you

48:51

I will begin I will begin with a chance

49:00

as first in Sanskrit within the

49:02

translation nerve are three poor antico

49:10

of Ottawa Bramha Surendra tava van or

49:17

wash a lecture note the Bhagavad Buddha

49:21

Siddhartha raga do a Chevy short imahara

49:28

heeta soprano cambodia toe yes are away

49:33

so Hasan scritto boon organised us my

49:37

enema surah fatah the supreme reality

49:43

and its messengers are known by various

49:45

names and various traditions but as for

49:50

me I offer my worship always to the one

49:53

going by any name and belonging to any

49:55

tradition who is free from attachment

49:58

and hatred free from worldliness and

50:01

delusion who is filled with compassion

50:04

for all living beings and who is

50:07

possessed of all noble virtues Oh Sean

50:11

this Shanti Shanti he hurry he own

50:17

thoughts at all peace peace peace be

50:21

unto us all first let me say it's a

50:27

great blessing to be here it's a great

50:29

blessing to be here with dr. Nasir

50:32

someone whom I have admired from a

50:35

distance for some years known about if

50:38

you haven't read his book which there's

50:40

several books of his out here all of

50:42

which are very good the garden of truth

50:44

is a wonderful wonderful text that I

50:47

recommend highly to everyone so I feel

50:50

honored really to be here

50:52

and at the same platform with such a

50:54

distinguished man such as a man of great

50:59

insight great knowledge great learning

51:03

really I'm was overcome when I heard

51:07

that this was possible I thank very much

51:10

the organizers who have made this

51:12

extraordinary event possible I've heard

51:17

it said several times well you've come

51:19

all the way from India for this you

51:21

couldn't have kept me from coming once

51:24

the once I knew it was possible to come

51:26

it was a it was an honor for me to come

51:28

and I thank the City of Louisville for

51:30

making this possible it's really an

51:32

extraordinary thing I've been to many

51:34

mentor religious events and I've been to

51:36

many cities in America and and other

51:38

countries but it's a very unusual thing

51:41

that a city like Louisville would put on

51:44

such an event and put it on year after

51:46

year so I think those of you who are

51:50

here from Louisville I think all of you

51:52

who came from outside for coming and I

51:55

thank the organizers for the wonderful

51:57

work that they have that they have done

51:59

so first let me say that yeat who

52:05

everything that dr. nasir has said

52:07

professor Nasser has said there's

52:09

nothing obviously if I were to speak on

52:12

the same topic as I as I will now I'll

52:14

say it in different terms but there's

52:16

nothing which he said which I would have

52:20

the slightest slightest quibble with so

52:25

I I will speak in different somewhat

52:27

different terms but at least from my

52:29

perspective and I hope from his at least

52:33

from my perspective it's and it's

52:35

complimentary I always like just as a

52:39

matter of personality as a matter of

52:42

temperament I like to work from the

52:46

terms of a theme that I've been given

52:48

here sacred silence and compassion so

52:51

let me first address the term sacred

52:54

that's the easiest of the three terms I

52:57

can be dispensed with easily not because

52:59

it's not important it's very important

53:01

but because it's easy to speak

53:04

about it's very common nowadays for

53:06

people to say that well everything is

53:08

sacred and yes that's true everything is

53:11

sacred but also everything is secular

53:14

everything is secular to the mind which

53:16

is non sacred that is to the mind which

53:19

doesn't see the sacred everything is

53:22

secular religion is secular god is dead

53:26

and everything in the universe is just

53:29

material just dead dull and sentient

53:32

matter that is and so to the person who

53:38

is spiritually minded everything is

53:42

spiritual there is no secular someone

53:47

said let there be light God said let

53:49

there be light and there was light

53:52

it's certainly easier to see you this

53:54

way

53:54

I can actually see where I'm speaking to

53:57

it it doesn't doesn't matter so to the

54:00

to the mind that is able to see

54:03

everything is sacred and everything is

54:06

full of light everything so every

54:13

everything is sacred and so sacred and

54:18

secular depends on the mind I would say

54:21

that ultimately everything is only

54:24

sacred there is only the sacred that

54:26

that is the that is the truth but to the

54:28

mind who doesn't see that to the mind is

54:30

not sensitive to that then yes

54:32

everything is seen as just dog dead and

54:35

in sentient so sacred everything is

54:38

sacred if we have the eyes to see it

54:40

silence what is silence

54:43

we can't understand silence without

54:45

understanding sound and without

54:48

understanding a special form of sound

54:49

which is word so there are different

54:53

levels of silence let's first begin with

54:56

physical silence what is physical

54:58

silence physical silence obviously is

55:01

the absence of sound including human

55:04

language but the absence of sound and

55:06

physical sound of course are just waves

55:10

vibrations that pass through a medium

55:12

such a physical medium such as air or

55:14

water or our own voices sound different

55:17

too

55:18

cells from what they sound to our

55:20

hearers nowadays it's not so long before

55:25

a person first hears their own voice

55:27

recorded but when I was a kid

55:28

tape recorders were rare and I was in

55:31

the eighth or ninth grade ninth grade

55:33

before I ever heard my recorded voice

55:35

and I was shocked that's me I don't

55:39

sound like that

55:40

but that's because I hear myself not

55:41

just through the air

55:44

the vibrations I'm making out into the

55:46

air but through the bones of my of my

55:49

head and so sound is carried to a

55:53

physical physical medium but sound is

55:58

more than just vibration first of all

56:00

who is there sound without an ear to

56:05

hear it or better is there sound without

56:07

consciousness to be aware of it sound is

56:11

the way that we react to or what the

56:14

minds reaction to vibrations so unless

56:17

there is a consciousness that hears

56:19

sound there's not really sound there

56:21

maybe it's arguable whether there are

56:23

vibrations are not without an awareness

56:26

there to perceive it I won't go into

56:28

that argument but certainly there's not

56:29

really sound just as there's not really

56:32

light what we know is light and what we

56:34

know is color without a consciousness to

56:36

perceive it and sound all sound even not

56:41

speaking of human language all sound is

56:44

information if I hear a neighbor running

56:47

a chainsaw that gives me information

56:48

because everything in the universe is

56:51

knowledge everything is everything is

56:54

prakasha as it said in sanskrit that is

56:57

manifesting knowledge the manifestation

56:59

of knowledge and so all sound is

57:01

knowledge and word is a special type of

57:04

sound through words we can say thoughts

57:07

concepts from one mind to another all

57:10

sound conveys information for those who

57:13

can hear it just as is interesting with

57:15

dogs dogs have such a profound sense of

57:18

smell we think of smell in terms of good

57:22

smells and bad smells basically but for

57:25

dog smells have so much information

57:27

that's why when you take a dog for a

57:28

walk it stops at the fire hydrant

57:31

and can stay there for 5-10 minutes just

57:33

sniffing because there's so much

57:34

information there to be gathered so for

57:36

us sound is full of information light is

57:40

full of information and so it's a

57:42

universe of knowledge but where does

57:45

this particular type of sound a sound

57:47

which conveys from one mind to another

57:49

conveys thought from one mind to another

57:52

and so the absence of physical sound is

57:55

what we normally think of as silence

57:57

let's all be silent then everybody knows

57:59

there's okay now we're not going to talk

58:01

and we're not going to make noise and

58:05

that will be our experience of silence

58:08

and so silence for most people means

58:12

physical silence but as dr. nasir

58:14

beautifully said that's not the most

58:16

important part of silence we can

58:18

fetishize silence and as soon as we do

58:20

then we hear sound like we just heard we

58:22

say well let's all be quiet and then

58:24

suddenly all kinds of sounds start

58:26

happening and then we get irritated and

58:28

frustrated and we try to control the

58:29

environment so those sounds don't come

58:32

so sound our silence is much more than

58:36

just physical silence the absence of

58:38

physical sound there benefits to

58:41

physical silence relative physical

58:43

silence absolute physical silence isn't

58:45

even possible if you as long as there is

58:49

an operator mind attached to the ear

58:52

absolute silence is impossible but some

58:57

limited silence is beneficial because it

59:00

gives us a chance to focus on what's

59:01

going on in the mind but that's where

59:03

real silence begins to take place so the

59:07

search for silence is really the search

59:10

for internal silence and external

59:13

silence only as far as it helps but

59:15

again it's a mistake to fetishize it to

59:16

make it too important in our spiritual

59:19

lives because we can't control it so

59:20

often so the search for silence leads us

59:23

to the search for mental mental silence

59:26

so mental noise what is mental noise

59:30

mental noise is the cacophony of

59:32

thoughts that are within the mind the

59:35

thoughts that are going on as dr. nasir

59:36

beautifully pointed out our thoughts are

59:39

generally in the form of sound and

59:41

sound an image according to the Vedanta

59:45

and to the yoga psychology there's a

59:47

point where image and sound divine

59:50

there's a place above the ordinary

59:52

operation of the mind not beyond the

59:54

mind but beyond the ordinary or

59:56

operation of the mind before sound and

59:58

image separate where the two are one but

60:01

for us in our normal mental operation

60:03

their image and and words concepts and

60:09

so mental noise is different from

60:12

physical noise so many people come to

60:15

people like myself spiritual person a

60:19

person who's practicing spirituality I

60:21

don't make any claims for myself but

60:23

someone who's practicing sincerely

60:25

trying the best that he can and says

60:27

Swami I wish I could just tell my mind

60:30

to shut up I wish I could find some way

60:34

to tell my mind to shut up so that's the

60:36

silence that's where silence really

60:38

begins when we begin to work with the

60:41

mind what is mental noise again mental

60:44

noises thoughts primarily words and

60:47

images and mental silence is the

60:50

relative absence of those thoughts that

60:53

cacophony of thinking remembering and

60:58

imaging that's where the the practice of

61:03

meditation comes in and also as dr.

61:06

nasir beautifully pointed out we can't

61:09

get there just by killing thought by

61:12

saying okay I'm just going to kill the

61:14

mind I'm going to destroy the mind or

61:16

I'm going to destroy thinking I'm just

61:17

going to stop thinking what happens when

61:20

we try to do that one of two things

61:21

either we go to sleep because the mind

61:25

is used to activity or the mind rebels

61:27

and just spins off into an ending

61:30

activity and we get distracted and we

61:31

forget we're even supposed to be

61:33

practicing Saye steadiness of the mind

61:36

so studying of the mind is usually done

61:38

in one of several ways one way is

61:41

through the practice of mindfulness

61:43

present in all spiritual traditions it

61:46

was especially developed in the Buddhist

61:48

tradition as a science in itself in

61:50

other traditions you see @mention

61:52

mentioned

61:52

Christ Himself mentions that he says

61:55

watch and pray praying is meditating

61:59

watching is being mindful watching is

62:02

being mindful and - and fulness what you

62:05

do is you try to establish a steady

62:07

field of awareness not focusing on one

62:10

particular thing but holding the mind as

62:13

a steady field of awareness being aware

62:15

of whatever arises within the field of

62:17

your awareness but holding the mother

62:19

awareness steady and alert

62:23

another type of another approach to

62:27

mental quietude comes through focusing

62:30

the mind what you could call the yogic

62:32

approach where you focus the mind on one

62:35

thing through jabba that is repetition

62:37

of a mantra focusing the mind on a

62:41

symbol on a word etc even on a physical

62:47

object but something to bring the powers

62:49

of the mind to a focus that has great

62:51

value as does mindfulness focusing the

62:55

mind on one point has great value

62:57

because all knowledge comes through

62:59

concentration anything that we want to

63:01

understand the secrets off by focusing

63:03

the mind on it that's the way that we

63:05

opened the secrets - to nature internal

63:08

and external and so focusing the mind

63:11

mindfulness focusing the mind or seeking

63:14

seeking and Christian prayer for

63:17

instance in the mystical prayer of the

63:20

Christians not just the vocal prayer and

63:23

so forth but the mystical prayer has

63:24

developed by a great Christian mystics

63:26

you find them speaking about getting rid

63:29

of words getting rid of images and just

63:31

waiting on God but that waiting is a

63:34

seeking it's a wait it's an active

63:36

waiting otherwise again the mind just

63:38

falls asleep and so in seeking mental

63:41

stillness and you know as I said at the

63:45

beginning I'd like to define terms

63:46

that's the way I approach things I'll

63:48

come to compassion but first I want to

63:51

deal it a little bit more with with

63:53

silence and the opposites of silence the

63:55

opposite of silence so we try to bring

63:57

the mind to stillness but we do that

63:59

either by focusing or by holding the

64:02

mind alert as a field of awareness and

64:04

watching things arising in it

64:05

practice of mindfulness or waiting or

64:08

seeking waiting and seeking a really two

64:10

aspects of the same thing that is

64:13

seeking God in silence and in darkness

64:16

waiting for God in silence and darkness

64:18

or in the bade antic tradition there's a

64:21

practice also present in Chinese

64:24

Buddhism in the charm Buddhism of China

64:27

Chinese in the practice of seeking for

64:30

the self that is seeking the source of

64:32

my awareness the seeking the source of

64:34

my awareness so I'm not going to go into

64:36

all of these practices I'm just saying

64:38

the that is an important point to know

64:40

where do we find silence physical

64:44

silence can only be relative mental

64:46

silence that's where we seek it but to

64:48

seek it we don't just say okay now I'm

64:50

just going to be silent and that the

64:52

mind just be quiet the mind won't do

64:54

that it'll either go to sleep or it'll

64:56

spin off into activities so something

64:58

which disciplines the mind which brings

65:00

it into a state of silence there's the

65:06

second Sutra that is aphorism of the

65:10

Yoga aphorisms or the Yoga Sutras the

65:12

most famous of all of the aphorism zone

65:15

yoga which is yogas chitta vritti

65:17

nirodha Yoga is the cessation of the

65:21

modifications of mind that's talking

65:24

about the perfection of yoga much of the

65:26

rest of the Yoga Sutras tells how you

65:28

get there and they give techniques for

65:29

doing it by training in the mind not

65:31

just by killing the mind which you can't

65:33

do but by training the mind for instance

65:35

through focusing and other their methods

65:37

seeking and waiting etc but Yoga is the

65:41

cessation of the modifications of mind

65:43

and then it says tada the rush to Swarup

65:46

a vast Onam then when the waves of the

65:49

mind of society then the seer is

65:52

established in its own nature the seer

65:54

is what the seers the saw the self which

65:57

dr. nasir was talking about the true

65:59

self the divine self the one self the

66:02

self where all of our selves meet when

66:05

the mind becomes still and becomes quiet

66:07

that are the residues would obey vast

66:09

Onam then the seer is established in its

66:12

own nature you are the seer I am the

66:15

seer each one of us is the seer the

66:17

animal the conscious

66:19

any conscious being is the seer and yet

66:23

we've identified with the activities of

66:25

the mind so that's why silence is

66:27

important

66:28

that's why silence leads us towards the

66:30

truth the truth which is also compassion

66:33

it's because when the mind is still then

66:36

the truth becomes revealed a very common

66:41

metaphor which or simile which you've

66:44

all probably heard is of the still lake

66:46

when the lake is perfectly still you get

66:48

a perfect reflection we've all seen

66:50

beautiful calendars of Alpine Lakes

66:52

where the water is perfectly still and

66:55

there's a perfect reflection of the

66:57

trees on the other bank and sometimes

67:00

when you first look at it you're not

67:01

sure which way to turn the picture

67:02

because which is the reflection and

67:04

which is the reality

67:05

so the mind when it's still then reality

67:09

becomes perceived and then the the next

67:14

Stu theorem just to complete that

67:17

thought is reti sarupya meter atre at

67:21

other times at times when the mind is

67:23

not still then we are identified with

67:25

the waves in the mind and so we seek

67:28

silence why we seek internal silence

67:31

mental silence so that we can come

67:34

closer to God so that we can know the

67:35

truth yes again I keep referring because

67:38

this talk was so rich I really again I

67:40

feel sure I was if after dr. Nasser's

67:45

talk had ended they'd said okay that's

67:47

the end I would have been perfectly

67:48

happy but they didn't say that so now I

67:51

had to get up to say something but but

67:56

as

67:58

the the the the idea of of the internal

68:06

stillness where where the mind has

68:09

become still and the self becomes that

68:12

the self becomes revealed then that

68:14

again that's what we're seeking in in

68:16

silence there's a and here we begin to

68:20

come I said there are levels of silence

68:22

there's physical silence and mental

68:24

silence which we've just been speaking

68:25

about and then there's metaphysical

68:26

silence which is what we're coming to

68:28

now metaphysical silence there's a

68:31

beautiful verse in the chandogya

68:33

upanishad one of the ancient Upanishads

68:36

one of the older the Punishers

68:37

themselves that the major Upanishads are

68:41

ancient in themselves but of them that

68:43

chandogya is one of the most ancient and

68:45

there there's a beautiful passage where

68:47

it says the ayah TV ayat Eva Pro TV the

68:52

ayat Avant erection diet Eva the hora

68:55

diet evil the giant Eve apple etc it

68:59

says the earth is as if meditating the

69:03

skies are as if meditating the heavens

69:05

are as if steeped in meditation the

69:08

waters the rivers the lakes are all

69:10

steeped in meditation the mountains are

69:13

steeped in meditation men women and

69:16

they'd the celestial beings are all

69:18

steeped in meditation David malucia

69:20

they're all steeped in meditation as we

69:24

begin to learn to quiet in the mind

69:27

through discipline then we begin to get

69:29

to that point where we feel that the

69:31

nature of everything really is silence

69:33

the nature of things are is silence we

69:37

begin to feel that everything is steeped

69:39

in meditation there was something I used

69:41

to do as a practice which I don't have

69:47

the opportunity right now to do as much

69:48

not as often but I used to do regularly

69:51

when I was in Hollywood California where

69:52

we have a villain to society I would

69:55

walk hour near our Center is Hollywood

69:58

and Vine and the Franklin Street and the

70:00

101 freeway going over the streets there

70:03

I'd walk down from our temple down to

70:06

this very busy area and just listen to

70:08

the extraordinary noise of car

70:11

and trucks and honking and people

70:13

talking and so forth and just try to

70:15

feel to make a distinction between

70:17

internal silence and external not that I

70:20

had attained a great a great spiritual

70:22

state no but it was a practice a

70:24

wonderful practice to try to feel that

70:26

yes silence is internal and to try to

70:28

feel an internal silence in the presence

70:31

of which the external silence loses its

70:34

significance then that's why again I

70:35

said it's not good to fetishize too much

70:37

external silence it's not good to

70:39

fetishize it some is helpful but we can

70:43

only control so much and we shouldn't

70:45

try it too hard to control it we should

70:48

learn to have that internal and as we

70:50

begin to develop that internal silence

70:51

then we begin to feel that silence is

70:54

the nature of reality and then we then

70:58

we begin to feel this that the the earth

71:00

is is if meditating the waters are as

71:02

though meditating the mountains are

71:03

meditating there was a another passage

71:08

you know and in Upanishad which has been

71:10

lost there it's only mentioned in a text

71:14

of Shankar Acharya the great Vedanta

71:16

philosopher who mentions this this

71:20

ancient text which we no longer have the

71:22

original - we just know this one little

71:24

segment there was a man named Bosh Kali

71:29

who came to ask a great teacher named

71:33

bhava about the nature of reality he had

71:36

heard that reality was transcendent that

71:38

reality was beyond time and space beyond

71:40

thought beyond concept so he goes to

71:42

this great teacher and and says 'add he

71:46

he bow all revered sir teach me teach me

71:49

the nature of Brahman teach me the

71:50

nature of the highest truth and so it

71:53

says that these see the teacher set

71:55

their duty m3t and a second time and a

71:58

third time he says teach me sir teach me

72:01

the nature of reality and so after the

72:03

third time of asking him and still the

72:06

teacher remaining silent then the

72:08

teacher says I am teaching you room aha

72:11

I am teaching you oopah Shantou jamaat

72:14

ma oopah Shonto iam Atma the nia the

72:17

name of the self is silence the name of

72:20

the highest self is silence I am

72:22

teaching us again that beautiful

72:26

incident which dr. nasir himself

72:28

witnessed an extraordinary incident and

72:32

so here in the Upanishads that that is

72:34

mentioned there's also another incident

72:36

like what dr. nasir mentioned in him

72:39

called the Dakshinamoorthy stotra a

72:42

great great hymn which there's a verse

72:45

in it which begins austere iam but a

72:48

terrible a guru shishya Veda guru you ah

72:52

how wonderful seated under the banyan

72:55

tree there's a teacher who's a young man

72:57

and seated around him are elderly

72:59

disciples the teachers teaches in

73:02

silence gurus - Mona machi Onam the

73:05

teacher teaches through silence

73:07

sheesh astute in the some Shia but this

73:10

doubts of the students are dispelled

73:12

forever that's something that only

73:15

agreed to a teacher as the the great

73:17

former Shankar Acharya Kancheepuram the

73:21

dr. Nasir met only a great teacher like

73:23

that can teach in that with that type of

73:25

silence but those who can teach in such

73:28

a silence just their very presence is a

73:31

great teaching that's the type of

73:33

silence that we want to attain we want

73:35

to approach it from where we can now and

73:38

in spiritual life one of the things to

73:39

know is what is our eventual goal and

73:42

how do I work to get there how do I get

73:45

from where I am now and so we begin

73:47

where we are now but we need to know

73:49

where it is that I want to go and so

73:51

that's where we want to want to go there

73:56

was a great king in Indian lore who

74:02

asked his ministers and the wise men of

74:04

his kingdom to teach him the knowledge

74:06

of the self to teach him how to realize

74:09

the self that is the the divine the

74:12

infinite self the one self of which we

74:14

all are part where our being merges into

74:17

the being of the divine so yes and the

74:20

different people taught him different

74:21

things but he couldn't get it he

74:23

couldn't get it but he had real hunger

74:25

it wasn't just an idle speculative wish

74:29

of his to understand something he really

74:31

wanted to experience this a deeper

74:33

reality and so for years he went on

74:35

asking people

74:36

trying what he was taught one day it

74:38

said that they God took compassion on

74:40

him and God appeared before him in the

74:43

form of a gardener taking the form just

74:45

of an ordinary humble gardener that the

74:48

king of course didn't recognize and the

74:50

gardener was there trimming the plants

74:51

in the garden and the king came up to

74:55

him and asked the gardener Oh gardener

74:58

please hand me a rose and so then the

75:00

gardener stood up and said stop the King

75:05

because of his years of practice he was

75:08

ready when the gardener who is really

75:10

the divine in appearing in human form

75:13

said stop

75:14

suddenly they did the King said stop

75:16

okay I stopped my body but no the vital

75:20

force within me is still flowing stop

75:22

leave the erratic flowing of the vital

75:25

force but no he said stop let me stop

75:28

the mind and so he said he he brought

75:30

the mind to stillness which he could do

75:32

because of his years of practice and he

75:34

went on stopping everything until he

75:36

attained to the highest silence and

75:38

there he realized the highest truth so

75:40

again that's that's the silence there

75:42

that we want we may it may not be

75:44

accessible to us now but if we know

75:46

that's where we're going then we begin

75:48

to look in the right places there's a

75:52

another Vedic passage in ancient Vedic

75:54

passage before even the Upanishads in

75:56

the very oldest part of the Vedas which

75:59

says let me chant it for you and then

76:01

out translated says oh yo shanti

76:06

interaction shanti pretty v Shante ohh

76:13

Shante you today Ashanti Juanes pitaya

76:18

Chandi which way devar Chandi Brahma

76:25

Chandi sarvam shanti shanti shanti he

76:30

saw ma Chandi read

76:33

Oh Shonda shunned Ashanti Ashanti as

76:43

usually as most of you know is

76:44

translated as peace but it can also be

76:46

silenced but let me translate it in the

76:48

usual way as peace

76:50

this says pieces in the heavens pieces

76:53

in the sky pieces on earth the other

76:56

passage that I quoted before was the

76:59

earth as if meditating the sky as as if

77:02

meditating but here it's saying pieces

77:04

and the heavens and it's really not is

77:06

in but peace is the heavens pieces the

77:09

sky pieces the earth pieces the waters

77:12

peace is the plants in the trees peace

77:15

are the celestial beings peace is the

77:17

nature of truth may that truth real

77:20

truth be with us all that's the

77:24

translation of that particular prayer

77:26

and so again that's the peace that we

77:28

want as we begin to even approach it one

77:31

of the beautiful things about spiritual

77:33

life is that long before when we're

77:35

still ordinary people striving striving

77:37

and struggling to get somewhere on the

77:38

spiritual path we begin to see the

77:40

distant mountains we begin to see the

77:42

lay of the land and we beget we begin to

77:45

understand things that we can't yet

77:47

experience fully but we begin to see the

77:49

lay of the land before us we begin to

77:51

get glimpses and so one of the things we

77:54

begin to see at that time is what is the

77:57

nature of sound what is the nature of

77:59

sound Cius ound as silence itself sound

78:02

is made out of silence it's like

78:05

dropping a pebble into an ocean of

78:06

silence and the waves are what we call

78:08

sound if we begin to get even a glimpse

78:11

of that then the contrast between sound

78:13

and silence goes away for us or it

78:16

begins to go away for us we begin to see

78:18

through the the dichotomy between sound

78:21

and silence we begin to see that sound

78:23

itself is made of silence in our

78:26

relationship to saya sound itself

78:28

changes so let me say a word also about

78:31

word and then compassion and then I'll

78:34

bring it to a close as I've spoken a lot

78:37

about sound I want to say at least a

78:38

word or two about word because word is a

78:41

very particular type of sound

78:43

again the way that we communicate but

78:45

there are traditions as again dr. nasir

78:48

indicated there are traditions including

78:50

the Hindu and the Islamic and the

78:53

Christian and the Jewish traditions the

78:57

Kabbalistic tradition which say that

78:59

creation one way of looking at creation

79:01

as the creation has come out of the word

79:03

in the beginning was the word and the

79:05

Word was with God and the Word was God

79:07

says st. John there's a passage in the

79:10

Vedas that is exactly equal not the

79:13

Saint John copied the Vedas but it

79:15

reaffirms the truth of it did you see it

79:17

springing up in two different traditions

79:19

in different parts of the world in the

79:21

Vedas that says Allah

79:24

Prajapati Rita McGraw steeped in the

79:26

beginning was God Prajapati the lord of

79:28

beings in the beginning was Prajapati

79:30

log the co duty acid his second was the

79:35

word one way but among Rama and that

79:38

word is indeed God the god itself not

79:42

himself but God itself the neuter form

79:45

so in the beginning was God with him was

79:48

the second which was word and that word

79:49

is indeed the divine itself and so word

79:52

is also something that we our problem is

79:56

not words our problem is too many words

79:58

our problem is not sound our problem is

80:01

the misinterpretation of sound and

80:02

making too much sound

80:04

the problem with words is that we've

80:07

forgotten the meaning of words as I like

80:10

to say we know we're in trouble when

80:12

Coke is the real thing

80:16

we're in Salem serious trouble so our

80:21

problem is the use of words and the

80:23

misuse of words and the abuse of words

80:25

there's out of the word that creation

80:28

has come and so the word that comes out

80:31

of silence that's the creative word in

80:33

the Hebrew part of the Bible the Torah

80:36

they look of Genesis and the Old

80:39

Testament as Christians know it it said

80:41

that God said let there be light and

80:43

there was light it doesn't say that God

80:46

went and mixed up chemicals in the

80:47

laboratory poured out of the test tube

80:50

the first ray of light no God said let

80:53

there be light and there was light that

80:55

means that God's Word is creative and so

80:58

as again as dr. nasir referred to the

81:00

sacred word ohm they're the most sacred

81:02

word of Hinduism and the most universal

81:05

Hindi as a symbol of Hinduism which was

81:07

used about not only by the Hindus but

81:09

then by the Buddhists and the Sikhs and

81:12

the Giants and there's no reason why any

81:14

tradition couldn't use it because it's

81:17

there for anyone's used it part it's

81:19

part of the universal heritage of

81:21

humanity the sacred word ohm is said to

81:24

be the first creative sound out of which

81:26

everything else has come so we know the

81:29

meaning of language and we know the

81:31

significance of language all words come

81:33

from that divine source there's a

81:36

beautiful idea in Sanskrit grammar which

81:38

says that the true meaning of every word

81:41

because Sanskrit grammar and everything

81:43

in India had a spiritual foundation

81:44

grammar also was considered a spiritual

81:47

philosophy and even a spiritual path

81:49

that said that the true meaning of every

81:52

word is God the true meaning of every

81:55

word is Brahman there the true meaning

81:56

of every word is the highest spiritual

81:59

truth what does that mean it means that

82:01

everything that we can name is and

82:06

isness belongs to the divine the divine

82:09

is the being that is the divine is I am

82:13

that I am

82:15

that is that is the nature of the divine

82:17

and so when I say this podium I'm

82:21

pointing to something with which is I'm

82:23

saying this is and so it's first meaning

82:26

is the divine and secondly its its

82:29

manifestation the Divine Being

82:30

manifesting as a podium when I say a

82:33

person's name the first thing is the

82:35

spiritual reality which is represented

82:38

by that name secondarily the individual

82:40

person and so the meaning of every word

82:42

is primarily the divine secondarily a

82:45

particular object so again if we

82:46

understand the meaning of words then the

82:49

contrast between silence and words is

82:52

not what it once was

82:54

let me read two short passages then I'll

82:56

see a word of compassion and then

82:57

conclude one is from a Sanskrit

83:00

grammarian and he says about the

83:03

practice of spirituality from the

83:06

standpoint of word he says taking his

83:09

stand that is the spiritual aspiring

83:11

taking his stand on the essence of word

83:14

lying beyond the activity of breath that

83:17

is taking the word tracing the source of

83:20

word back when I'm speaking where does

83:22

that word come from I try to seek its

83:25

source back in my consciousness taking

83:27

his stand on the essence of the word

83:28

lying beyond the activity of breath

83:30

resting in oneself with all sequence in

83:33

the words eliminated there's a sequence

83:35

of sounds that make up a word it said

83:38

that when we go beyond the physical and

83:41

mental aspect of speech we go to a point

83:43

where there's not a sequence in the

83:45

sounds after having purified speech and

83:48

after having rested it on the mind after

83:50

having broken its bonds and made it bond

83:52

free after having reached to the inner

83:55

light through this process the Aspire

83:57

--nt with his knots cut becomes united

84:00

with the supreme light so again seeking

84:04

the source of word we take it back to

84:07

silence and we find a source in the

84:09

divine silence and let me read a

84:12

parallel passage that's even more

84:14

beautiful even more expressive from

84:16

al-ghazali the great islamic saint to

84:20

the Sufi saint he says let the seeker

84:24

sit alone in some corner let him see to

84:27

it that nothing save God the Most High

84:29

enters his mind then as he sits in

84:32

solitude let him not see saying

84:34

continuously with his tongue

84:35

Allah Allah keeping his thought on

84:39

the name of God at last he will reach a

84:41

state where the motion of the tongue

84:43

will cease again you remember Bertie

84:45

Hari the grammarian I was quoting before

84:47

he says actually I'm sorry I wasn't

84:49

bothering barre3 Hari but one of his

84:51

commentators he said that they were go

84:54

beyond the the level of the breath with

84:56

with the word so at last he will reach a

84:59

state where the motion of his tongue

85:01

will cease and it will see him as though

85:02

the word flows from it

85:04

let him persevere in this until all

85:06

trace of motion is removed from his

85:08

tongue and he finds his heart

85:10

persevering in the thought let him

85:12

persevere until the form of the words

85:13

its letters and its shape again the same

85:16

as what I was reading before is removed

85:18

from his heart that is the sequence and

85:20

there remains the idea alone as though

85:22

clinging to his heart inseparable from

85:24

it nothing now remains but to await what

85:27

God will open to him if he follows the

85:29

above course he may be sure that the

85:31

light of the reel will shine in his

85:33

heart

85:34

so again tracing word back to its source

85:36

its source in the divine so again if we

85:39

have if we learn the meaning of sound

85:42

and if we learn the meaning of silence

85:43

if we learn where to seek silence if we

85:46

learn all of this and we begin to find

85:49

that yes silence is the nature of

85:51

silence is the nature of reality silence

85:55

is the nature of everything that within

85:57

everything the silence is already

85:58

present it's not something we have to

85:59

create but then our our relationship to

86:03

sound changes and our relationship to

86:05

word changes as well

86:06

and finally compassion compassion is I

86:11

really don't have anything to add beyond

86:13

what dr. nasir said but let me just say

86:16

so that I will say something about it to

86:18

to complete the talk compassion is not

86:21

as he so beautifully explained it's not

86:24

sentimentality so it's not just to good

86:27

good feelings and it's certainly not

86:29

looking down on someone and feeling

86:31

sorry for them oh look at the poor

86:33

wretch their suffering let me do

86:34

something you throw them a bone or give

86:36

them something to help them out know

86:38

that obviously is not compassion

86:39

compassion is the feeling of sameness

86:42

the feeling of the pains of others and

86:46

the joys of others as my own feeling the

86:49

experience of others as my own

86:50

experience

86:51

is the value of that what is the value

86:53

of true compassion what's the value of

86:56

doing that the value is that that's

86:58

reality that is what the reality is

87:02

because there is no separation there is

87:04

no ultimate separation it's the feeling

87:06

of separation is being enclosed within

87:08

this ego self which is the source of all

87:10

of our problems and when we can overcome

87:12

that then we find that that compassion

87:15

is not something that we're told to do

87:18

because we're supposed to do it it's not

87:20

something that well is good for you it

87:21

may hurt but it's gonna be good for you

87:23

it'll form character no it's something

87:25

which is good for us because it's truth

87:26

it's something which is good for us

87:28

because it's our own nature it's

87:30

something that's good for us because

87:31

once we begin to open our hearts the

87:35

sense of ego becomes porous and we begin

87:37

to let the world outside be included in

87:39

our sense of self when our sense of self

87:42

begins to expand out and include the

87:44

rest of the world then we are the

87:46

gainers we are the gainers because we

87:48

become large not the ego but our real

87:51

being becomes large as long as we're

87:54

this little self enclosed to within

87:56

they're the ego then we're threatened by

87:58

everything as we become large as we

88:00

learn to include the world within our

88:02

sense of self then we become closer to

88:06

truth we become large and we find out

88:08

what true and lasting and secure joy is

88:17

[Applause]

88:36

gosh I feel like an interloper with my

88:43

cacophony to follow with so many

88:46

wonderful sacred words that evoke so

88:50

much silence and stillness in us well

88:55

I'm just an unworthy aspirant I'm deeply

88:58

grateful for the words of wisdom that we

89:01

have heard from you and I just sort of

89:04

sit here with a prayer that being the

89:06

middle of the sandwich that it all

89:08

gravitates towards me and I somehow

89:10

assimilate this intuitively and

89:13

subliminally my question really was that

89:18

as two eminent people who embody many of

89:24

the aspirations of what you to refer to

89:27

and what you describe for us in samsara

89:32

we struggle with our notions of

89:35

happiness and for us you know the

89:38

aspiration of the path usually in the

89:42

words that we are able to use manifested

89:45

well we want to be happy and not be

89:48

unhappy and to avoid suffering so what

89:51

are the unique characteristics or

89:54

qualities of someone who has achieved

90:00

sacred silence or enlightenment or

90:04

whatever phrases or words that one might

90:07

use what are the qualities what happens

90:10

what is the experience how do we

90:13

identify it

90:14

in what ways as it manifests itself as

90:17

everyday beings what can we hope to

90:22

reach what can we aspire to how does it

90:25

express itself what are the unique

90:27

features of it

90:31

yes you me yes it's a question for both

90:33

of you your question has released

90:37

several responses the human beings have

90:40

reached the highest levels of what you

90:43

call holy silence who do not manifest

90:47

this and you will never find out that's

90:50

not their function it's to be now that's

90:54

it other human beings whose function it

90:57

is to manifest that in this world and

91:00

your question really pertains to the

91:01

second category usually people like that

91:05

first of all there is a kind of

91:07

certitude in their world an attraction

91:11

the word it confirms the famous Persian

91:14

proverb that a word that comes from the

91:16

heart settled upon the heart but somehow

91:19

the words even the sentences the grammar

91:21

will be similar to someone else's but it

91:24

settled upon one heart is an inner

91:26

attraction for it

91:28

secondly there are usually people who

91:32

have a perception that goes beyond the

91:35

immediate perception of things not all

91:39

of them are great metaphysician

91:40

necessarily but their spiritual beings

91:42

the spiritual being always sees

91:45

everything in the Venus there is a

91:47

perfume of the sacred in everything as

91:49

he just pointed out in another context

91:52

I'm quite complete with what you said

91:54

the beginning there is such in the

91:57

secular world otherwise we wouldn't be

91:58

where we are but for the spiritual

92:00

person the perfume the sacred ism

92:03

present there so is able to present

92:05

sometimes even ordinary everyday

92:08

experiences in another light another

92:12

like there's so many stories of great

92:15

Sufi teachers walking the street in the

92:17

bazaar or something like that with some

92:18

of the disciples and you know man comes

92:20

along with the donkey and passes by and

92:22

nobody knows it but he has a spiritual

92:24

lesson which is disciples because of

92:26

that and a great teacher is not one who

92:30

only speaks about a pure full sovereign

92:33

metaphysical ideas but is able to

92:35

express the deepest meaning in the most

92:38

everyday common experiences eating lunch

92:43

drinking water what

92:45

in the street one can't expound the

92:47

deepest truth from anything I once had a

92:50

great teacher in Iran was very funny he

92:53

said so and so you said all these years

92:55

of studies and so on and so on if you're

92:57

gonna explain the whole of metaphysics

92:58

through eating Persian rice then you

93:01

really reach some station so it's a kind

93:04

of what is much emphasized in Zen a kind

93:09

of extraordinary ordinariness there's no

93:13

haughtiness involved in it the humility

93:16

that's always involved in it it's very

93:18

very different when someone who just

93:20

talks about these things there has to be

93:22

in that person a presence and there's an

93:26

all human beings a sixth sense of

93:29

sensing the presence of the sacred it

93:32

may be weak some people are don't have

93:34

good ears for music some people are

93:36

wonderful years for music but the ears

93:37

always there somebody and there must be

93:40

that sense of presence without which

93:43

what you say has not become actualized

93:46

anybody could pick up the book and read

93:48

it on their go punished read and

93:49

repeated like him that markable passers

93:52

beautiful passes are coated but when

93:54

someone really means to be there that's

93:57

quite something else and there's always

93:59

an existential effect to suppliant all

94:03

knowledge that is realized absolutely

94:06

there is no perfume without aroma

94:09

that's impossible there is no candle

94:12

that does not catch some light which

94:15

does not negate what I said at the

94:16

beginning that there are some creatures

94:18

in the world whom God chosen already for

94:20

himself in a sense and they are there

94:23

but we do not know but they play a

94:26

cosmic role they play a role in the

94:28

equilibrium the world which is another

94:29

story about not getting to some eg it's

94:36

in in the Vedanta tradition and Swami

94:39

Vivekanand the tortoise that brought

94:42

once again to the for the depending on

94:46

your mental disposition you had

94:49

different parts but the karma and Raja

94:53

yoga

94:55

and I hear so much about complementarity

95:00

surely there are different parts given

95:05

to different people in terms of maybe

95:09

the social contexts in which they live

95:14

the mental dispositions they have the

95:18

need for different mental diets in order

95:21

to reach this goal so do you see any

95:26

differences well I differences it's too

95:28

emphatic a word but let's see no ances

95:31

in terms of the sufi articulation of the

95:36

path and the aspiration and elements in

95:39

vedanta yes a good question and I I

95:44

don't see a difference I do see a nuance

95:48

and that's why you can read a Sufi text

95:51

and recognize this is a Sufi text and

95:53

you can read a bit antic text and

95:55

recognize this as a Vedantic text

95:56

otherwise they would sort of melt

95:59

together and you wouldn't know what you

96:01

were dealing with and of course it's

96:03

more than just the more than just the

96:05

terms but I find I have to say with the

96:08

with the the soufiane I mean back up and

96:12

say that I deeply appreciate what dr.

96:16

Nasser said at the very beginning then

96:18

it's a danger to separate Sufism from

96:21

Islam it can't be separated from Islam

96:22

so

96:24

when I have used the term soupy let me

96:26

refer that I'm speaking of the mystical

96:30

dimension of Islam only that when I read

96:33

a mystical Islamic text that there is a

96:37

there's a I have not yet found a passage

96:41

where I say no that's not true

96:43

no this is wrong I find it an expression

96:47

of truth and what is inspiring to me and

96:50

helpful to me in my spiritual life is

96:52

that when I read it I find that oh

96:55

that's that's a new way of looking at

97:00

this the truth that I had been looking

97:01

at from a different perspective the

97:03

reason why two eyes give us depths of

97:07

vision is because of the slight angle

97:09

between the two air are two is we the

97:12

distance between the two eyes that

97:13

allows me to see depth and so when I can

97:16

see in a tradition like the Sufi

97:18

tradition which has so many parallels

97:20

with the Vedanta or me Dante has so many

97:23

parallels with it then it it's an

97:27

experience of beauty for me and not a

97:29

not an experience of contrast and

97:31

certainly not different one other thing

97:35

that they're one of my teachers a Hindu

97:37

Swami of course I've never been outside

97:40

of India but he told me many years ago

97:43

that you should read the lives of Sufi

97:48

Saints and the lives of Christian saints

97:50

that you'll get great value from north

97:52

and that that is true but my other point

97:56

to this person is very much to his order

97:59

that Blanche to Ramakrishna order if you

98:02

won't talk about nuances especially

98:06

later history of India when ramanuja

98:08

came upon the scene the distinction

98:11

between jinan and bhakti forms of

98:13

spirituality became much more distinct

98:15

in Hinduism and they're more bound

98:18

together in Sufism you don't have pure

98:21

bhakti Sufism

98:22

I got pure bhakti Hinduism and even pure

98:27

jinan are the forms of Sufism have a

98:29

bockting elemental if you're going to

98:31

Douglas asked returned was the great

98:33

Ramakrishna who tried to reintegrate

98:35

these in the consciousness of Hindus

98:37

again and his view from that point of

98:39

view was very close to Suez I mean he

98:41

knew it it said that to some of his

98:43

colleagues and friends because you know

98:45

for a while he was practicing Sufism in

98:47

Ben garland so this is an interesting

98:50

point of comparison between these two

98:52

great traditions in fact in the case of

98:56

sri ramakrishna of course that he

98:59

actually engaged in the practices of

99:03

different traditions as micro charities

99:06

Lama as much as for his own education

99:10

and his own growth and understanding as

99:12

even though he's regarded as enough

99:15

thought but I believe equally to send

99:18

out a signal to the rest of the world

99:20

that he did this in in and in public or

99:23

albeit outside the temple precincts that

99:25

look well I would I would change that a

99:30

little bit and say that as the holy

99:32

mother Ramakrishna's wife's in the

99:34

Ramakrishna didn't do that with with any

99:37

idea of of teaching others it was a

99:40

spontaneous love for for the divine in

99:44

any way that it could be experienced and

99:46

so the teaching was there the example

99:49

was there and is there and the example

99:50

is there but I don't think that there

99:53

was a not that you were saying it this

99:55

way but I want to make this distinction

99:56

that there was no premeditation that I'm

99:59

going to teach this to the world welcome

100:00

so that was distinctly absolute there

100:03

was just this idea that oh god can be

100:05

experienced in this way - let me throw

100:07

myself into it at the at the practical

100:11

level for for those of us who are

100:14

exposed to abide diversity of religious

100:18

philosophical and spiritual traditions

100:21

and sometimes we naturally gravitate to

100:24

one as opposed to or instead of

100:29

the other and we also see in in terms of

100:34

the secular and attempt to take little

100:37

bits from different traditions you know

100:41

through a brand of spiritual tourism

100:43

where you collect artifacts and pieces

100:46

of practice surely there is there is a

100:51

value and you mentioned that you know

100:53

these are traditions that have survived

100:55

thousands of years and and and that is

100:58

the demonstration you know more than

101:00

anything else that it works and there is

101:03

a value to it so in in in in in in

101:09

today's era how dynamic how necessary is

101:13

it for spiritual traditions to evolve to

101:17

meet the current predicaments and needs

101:21

of aspirants without diluting the core

101:26

so that they can respond to contemporary

101:31

issues that come up and and traditions

101:35

such as that that you so beautifully

101:37

articulated and the more metaphysical

101:39

aspects of Atlanta of course rise above

101:42

it and so you go into a much larger

101:45

metaphysical realm but for us to access

101:48

that you know the points of entry are

101:50

still pretty mundane and so how do we

101:54

navigate that journey it's a very very

101:56

Cardinal question when JEB Rahul not

102:00

Nehru was still alive it was a prime

102:02

minister of India the Indian government

102:05

decided they wanted to change Muslim

102:07

Personal Law in India nothing too

102:09

personal Muslim Personal Law and they

102:11

faked the very big conference in

102:13

National Congress major scholars all

102:14

over all of whom came to confirm that

102:17

would be all right to change the Islamic

102:18

personal law and unfortunately for India

102:21

they also invited me and I undid the

102:23

whole thing and that's what Niro had his

102:25

heart attack was sitting right there in

102:26

the front row and there Gandhi took him

102:29

out and died a few months later not that

102:31

I caused his death

102:34

but what I said it like conference was

102:38

that if you have to change with the

102:39

times

102:40

what do the times have to change with

102:42

the notion that we have to change the

102:45

religions of the world in order to

102:47

conform to the so-called realities of

102:50

everyday life or our times forgets the

102:53

fact that upon what principles should

102:56

society itself change what determines at

102:59

times this is one of the greatest errors

103:01

of the modern world from the point of us

103:03

someone like myself as a traditionalist

103:05

we reject all the errors of modernism

103:07

going back to the Renaissance the

103:09

promise of rationalism over real

103:12

intellectual understanding of reality

103:14

individualism over the universal on so

103:16

many other things but which all the

103:18

traditional writers have written we

103:20

believe that the great religions of the

103:23

world are a gift from heaven and the

103:27

world is to be made in conformity with

103:29

them not they with the world having said

103:33

that however as squares over square you

103:36

cannot reform a square in every square

103:39

cannot evolve into a better square

103:41

that's absurd and much a modern thinking

103:44

is pure absurdity good sophistry but

103:47

putting that aside the fact that God is

103:49

will that these religions still around

103:51

and God is also will to have a humanity

103:54

that we have before are there today

103:57

either those religions are no wrong a

103:59

little relevant to this humanity or

104:03

they're relevant but this humanity

104:06

doesn't need religion and it's going to

104:07

do something else we're going to

104:08

disappear it's going to die out they

104:10

have several possibilities one is that

104:12

we're at the end of the world which is

104:13

of course the very strong possibility

104:15

that Hindus Muslims Christians many

104:17

according to their own scriptures

104:19

believe that we're not far away from

104:21

that I don't want to get it as close of

104:22

discussions now but one is that

104:25

therefore the people don't follow

104:26

religion at all the reason themselves

104:28

predicted it's the book of John the end

104:30

of the Quran and hadith and so on and so

104:32

of course all these Hindu texts of the

104:35

third century the piranhas you know much

104:37

better than I do the second possibility

104:39

is that as long as these religions are

104:42

alive God wants to keep them alive and

104:44

therefore the must have the effort

104:47

see because God's mercy will not allow

104:50

humanity to exist without any path of

104:52

salvation but still have the efficacy

104:54

for those human beings who live at the

104:56

present moment and I believe that all

104:59

the great spiritual paths are given by

105:01

God is creative plasticity to be able to

105:05

apply themselves to no matter what time

105:07

no matter what place you can practice

105:10

Sufism right here in Louisville as you

105:13

can in Mecca face the most difficult

105:15

place to try practice because of these

105:17

heathens who are ruling over there but

105:19

that's which I won't get into that

105:20

discussion but I cannot avoid saying

105:24

some of them there were a hundred storey

105:26

building next to the house of God what

105:27

can one say

105:28

but any other Islamic city you can

105:31

practice Sufism anywhere but not by

105:34

diluting it but by applying it to the

105:37

particular human condition in which we

105:39

find ourselves in the old days you know

105:42

would take you about two hours to go

105:43

with your donkey from your house to the

105:46

bazaar a place of work or the mosque

105:48

there are two hours to pray on the way

105:50

now you're stuck in 495 traffic around

105:53

Washington well you have to curse the

105:56

devil and sword and so to get out of it

105:57

it's very hard to keep control your

105:59

anger so obviously it still takes two

106:01

hours of course it's really improved but

106:06

you're a set of anger and frustration

106:08

all the time so you need other spiritual

106:11

means you're not relaxed as you were

106:13

going slow that you're drunk you're

106:15

horseback at some Indian or Persian City

106:17

so the conditions yes have changed but

106:20

as far as I know the great traditions I

106:22

have kept alive not only shoes them in

106:24

Islam said the path of Hinduism Buddhism

106:26

even he's a caste Christianity in the

106:29

Western Christian tradition most of the

106:31

spiritual path died out Merton was

106:33

trying to revive it and Catholicism of

106:36

course not the completely died out the

106:37

very difficult in all of his traditions

106:40

it is possible to apply it

106:42

I'm not hopeless and I tell you this to

106:45

you from experience a person who's not

106:48

only asked all of these fears of

106:49

something to do with them immersed in it

106:51

and I've seen it practiced by people as

106:53

different as children of divorces from

106:56

San Francisco to son of Allah ma and

107:00

and everything in between and that

107:02

couldn't happen and I'm sure it's true

107:04

of other tradition the fact that he's

107:05

sitting here is itself that he is not

107:08

born into the Hindu caste system he's a

107:11

westerner he's entered into the Hindu

107:13

spiritual world this would not have been

107:15

done a thousand years ago Hindus the

107:17

moon are permitted it is a point a kind

107:20

of divine compensation and I bring to

107:23

the tremendous danger because it brings

107:25

me the possibility of caricatures

107:27

distortions false gurus false

107:31

eclecticism which are one of the great

107:33

problems of our world today in which I

107:35

just say you take a little bit here a

107:36

little bit here you're making yourself

107:39

ultimately the god or the prophet

107:41

without saying so that so-called guru is

107:43

now the prophet because he's decided to

107:45

choose this part of Hinduism this part

107:47

of Islam's part of Christianity and that

107:49

I think is total nonsense very dangerous

107:52

demonic it's a satanic thing more than

107:54

something satanic because if another

107:57

Kumaraswamy said all paths lead to the

107:59

same summit you cannot jump from one

108:02

path for two feet and then go to the

108:04

other path and jump back again you'll

108:05

never get to the summit I'm posed most

108:07

like you'll fall down and break your

108:09

neck in between so we're in a world in

108:11

which a tremendous danger of pseudo

108:13

spirituality it's now echoed back into

108:17

the Oriental world it first occurred

108:19

back into Japan you had which was the

108:22

most modernized oriental country Society

108:25

after Second World War II we had began

108:27

to get pseudo Zen you had then anti Zen

108:29

pseudo Zen then it came in your country

108:32

in India all pseudo gurus and so what

108:35

began to appear now appear in the

108:36

Islamic world the Islamic Republic of

108:38

Iran they're not fake Sufis California

108:42

Sufis are migrated to Tehran that's an

108:46

expression so we live it really very

108:48

very difficult times you're right you

108:50

put your finger in a very important

108:52

issue you know there may be other forms

108:56

of less sacred sound invading us

109:01

different kinds of light illuminating us

109:04

in case you're wondering what I'm

109:06

pointing to is that they are preparing

109:08

for a party behind that screen and we

109:12

have assured them that

109:14

or that we will try and work around

109:18

there imperative that we conclude at

109:21

five o'clock minutes five minutes away

109:24

but we will carry on to we're

109:26

overwhelmed by different kinds of sound

109:28

and light so may I throw open the floor

109:32

for any questions that you might have a

109:35

be the speaker and if you raise your

109:38

hand

109:39

I like that cabbie turning on or not

109:42

what was happening there oh I see good

109:44

not a lunching down and trip you could

109:46

see the face of those who asked

109:47

questions I missed a great deal of

109:48

difference the ladies okay just so I'm

110:00

not real clear on my questions so maybe

110:03

you can help me formulate it but I'm a

110:05

healthcare I work in health care and I

110:09

want to know how you can discriminate

110:13

between pseudo care givers and authentic

110:21

care givers like from the place of

110:23

compassion versus the place that feeds

110:26

the ego and does that even matter in the

110:30

end result of caring for someone in

110:32

medicine that makes sense I think the

110:37

question was that how do you distinguish

110:40

between a caregiver who is coming from a

110:44

genuine position of compassion and

110:46

someone who is doing it in in a pseudo

110:51

fashion or with an ulterior motive

110:53

perhaps he would like to answer I call

110:58

answer but you go first

110:59

okay I'll attempt it's somewhat similar

111:03

to a pair parallel to the situation and

111:06

spiritual life between telling between a

111:08

true spiritual teacher and one who

111:10

a false prophet a a pretend prophet or a

111:16

pretender guru that's a that's a problem

111:21

in the spiritual life especially in the

111:24

modern times as dr. Nasir Nasser

111:26

indicated a few minutes ago it's a

111:28

particularly modern problem and it's

111:32

also a special problem in the health

111:35

giving world now with alternative

111:37

medicine which I am a firm believer in

111:40

and I use alternative medicine when

111:43

possible so I'm it's not a criticism of

111:44

alternative medicine it is a fact

111:47

however that as we say in America the

111:51

situation is buyer beware because even

111:55

some organizations which authenticate

111:59

practitioners of certain modalities of

112:03

caregiving even they sometimes or not

112:06

are not trustworthy so the first thing

112:10

is that we have to if it's the question

112:12

is about myself as a caregiver I have to

112:15

be totally honest just as as a spiritual

112:18

person to claim enlightenment on my part

112:22

when I don't have it that's a terrible

112:24

terrible thing because you're in

112:27

spiritual life it's even worse than in

112:29

the medical field because you're playing

112:32

on people's deepest hopes and fears and

112:35

the medical field you're playing on

112:38

people's hopes for physical life and

112:40

death which also is very very important

112:42

so we have to the practitioner has to be

112:44

extremely careful extremely honest about

112:47

what they can do what they can't do to

112:50

know what they've been trained to do and

112:51

what they haven't been trained to do if

112:54

we're going to someone and want to

112:56

treatment then we have to be cared very

112:57

careful about the person that we're

112:59

going to I don't stop there and

113:02

I'll just add this one word that you

113:05

have two very different problems that

113:06

the lady really alluded to one is the

113:10

technical know-how of taking care of the

113:13

sick you might have a very good

113:15

intention to have compassion but give

113:18

the wrong medicine and the patient dies

113:20

this must be distinguished from the

113:22

intention

113:23

I've been compassionate in fact the

113:25

caregiver could have no interest in

113:28

spiritual compassion whatsoever should

113:29

make him living it might be baking bread

113:32

or being a lawyer or something else

113:34

except she's doing this so they could

113:36

have it not an 0 or even negative

113:39

spiritual effect because the intention

113:42

was not to be compassionate but it's

113:44

just her profession that's the other

113:46

side of the coin and I'm the sort of

113:48

person who wants to be compassion in

113:50

this question of medical problems it's

113:52

very important that good intentions are

113:55

not enough in this case because you're

113:57

dealing with an aspect of knowledge you

113:59

might have which you may not have and it

114:02

must therefore be combined with humility

114:04

and this humility involves also being

114:08

humble in certain beliefs that certain

114:11

people have about medicine which will

114:14

not might not be based uncertainty going

114:17

all the way from tying a knot to a tree

114:19

or to go into a psychiatrist everything

114:21

in between you know what I mean I I'm

114:24

not criticising the only traditionalism

114:25

as a modern medicine and the many people

114:27

of all kinds of beliefs from Christian

114:29

Scientists to this and that whether your

114:32

this belief is based on certitude upon

114:36

which then you're going to be charitable

114:38

and compassion towards the patient which

114:40

is a very very complicated field and I

114:42

think the moral spiritual elements was

114:44

not be confused with the question of

114:46

efficacy of the profession of what is

114:48

practicing I think an implicit question

114:54

that is that has come up is that you

114:57

mentioned you know the aspect of Satta

114:59

tude and and Ants attitude of a

115:03

spiritual teacher and we have been

115:06

trained in everyday life or we believe

115:10

we need to aspire to

115:13

a healthy sense of self-doubt is is is

115:18

encouraged so that it leaves us open to

115:21

keep growing and it's attitude can be

115:23

dangerous

115:25

isn't there a fine balance there that

115:27

we're you know most how do I put it most

115:32

bigots and dictators experience greats

115:35

attitude and so what is that fine line

115:38

between this attitude of a spiritual

115:40

master the truth but the dictator is ass

115:44

convinced of his truth you know I mean

115:48

Hitler was ass convinced of his because

115:50

it was based on falsehood first of all

115:52

you have to have a certain amount of

115:55

doubt this statement to express itself a

115:58

certitude that you're expressing you're

116:00

certain that you should have a certain

116:02

amount of doubt the Piranha identifies

116:05

man's perfection with stages of

116:07

certitude with hearing about the fire

116:10

seeing the fire and being burned in the

116:12

fire the three levels of certitude

116:15

certitude zone is certitude it was based

116:18

on the truth when it's based on the ego

116:21

or on falsehood it becomes very

116:23

dangerous and so the doubt on a certain

116:27

level is a positive spiritual element

116:30

this is different from the doubting

116:32

Thomas of Christianity or this whole

116:35

doubt that we have in modern societies

116:38

so much lack of faith that doubt is not

116:40

against faith it's against the

116:43

falsification of a crystallization of

116:46

faith on the wrong level and that's a

116:49

human danger and especially self

116:53

deprecation not taking ourselves too

116:55

serious is very important as I said

116:57

humility - certitude is always combined

117:00

with humility pride and certitude don't

117:03

go together if we have a I'm certain of

117:07

this and I'm very proud of it there's

117:08

something wrong there's something wrong

117:10

with me all right the floor yes

117:17

excuse me I'm a person of faith and I

117:23

practice my faith and I recognize other

117:25

people who practice their faith but I

117:26

find that I have compassion towards

117:29

others who don't have that faith and

117:32

therefore my example and my treatment of

117:35

them would reflect the compassion that I

117:38

have for them and that I wouldn't not

117:41

recognize them or treat them differently

117:43

because they don't have a faith I was

117:46

just wondering how do you feel about

117:48

that and if I'm if my journey is to find

117:52

God or find let go of the ego I find I'm

117:56

travelling backwards because I came from

117:58

God not forwards and if I'm going back

118:01

to the silence which is God I think this

118:08

will have to be the last question unless

118:09

we practice what this is holy silence

118:12

[Laughter]

118:14

and the practice of what Swamiji you

118:17

know described as how do you know our

118:19

ability to filter out extraneous sound

118:23

we will be really challenged the essence

118:32

of it was that how do I if I practice a

118:36

particular faith respond to a person who

118:40

doesn't subscribe to that to the same

118:43

kind of faith I mean in a nutshell that

118:45

was well it was more nuanced than that

118:47

but

118:49

I'm sure you were going to say something

118:51

but just have spent a lifetime on this

118:53

issue I'll very quickly say a few words

118:56

I know we have to start with this noise

118:57

very soon ordinary human beings were not

119:01

created to live in a universe of

119:03

multiple religions for all of our

119:07

ancestors for millennia they lived

119:10

within a world in which the religion was

119:14

their religion they didn't have to worry

119:16

about the presence of other religions

119:17

there were few exceptions like the

119:20

meeting of Islam and Hinduism in India

119:21

the meeting of Islam Judaism and

119:24

Christianity in Spain but very few

119:26

exceptions by and large this held until

119:29

our own day we live in exceptional times

119:32

we live in a time when the borders

119:34

between religions are removed in a

119:37

certain way I've have been teaching for

119:39

years and years in universe in this

119:41

country and before that in Iran

119:42

especially in the West much more than in

119:44

the Islamic world it's very dangerous

119:47

for a young American student who's a

119:50

Christian to encounter Islam or Hinduism

119:53

and Buddhism and consider all these to

119:56

be infidels and go to hell and remain a

119:58

Christian it's very very difficult

120:00

because we have to either understand the

120:04

reality of religion in totality or we

120:07

are in danger of losing our own faith

120:08

however this is not possible for all

120:11

people it's very very difficult and

120:13

there are various grades of people I

120:16

believe that the highest level the sages

120:20

the saints of all religious communities

120:22

have to be able to practice an inclusive

120:27

ism which is so inclusive as to include

120:31

exclusivism

120:34

an inclusive ism that is so inclusive as

120:37

to include exclusives and that's very

120:40

very difficult if I sit here with a

120:42

southern baptists who thinks as soon as

120:45

I die will go to hell and who tried to

120:48

hold the worldview which also includes

120:50

his exclusivism that's a very difficult

120:52

thing and it's God really doesn't expect

120:55

that of everyone but every religious

120:57

community they must have religious

121:00

leaders who understand this perspective

121:02

and who are able to hold on to it we

121:05

have a few examples of that the

121:07

patriarch of the Orthodox Church

121:09

Bartholomew

121:10

it's remarkable manners of a very good

121:12

friend of mine lives and Constantinople

121:13

old corner that stumble today he's was

121:16

one like that among the Christians of a

121:18

dollar with almost all the Pope's in the

121:20

last few decades none of them really

121:22

hurt to this view they want to be

121:23

friends of Islam but they did not accept

121:25

Islam as a true religion I just had a

121:28

famous dialogue with pope benedict xvi

121:30

some of them have read it it was you

121:32

know let's love each other and God had

121:34

presented talking for him and he

121:36

answered and they have of Christianity

121:37

and here was the question of diplomatic

121:39

diplomacy wanted to be friends and so

121:41

forth we need more than that and a great

121:44

tragedy of our world is that as a result

121:47

of the advent of modernism in most

121:49

religions the movement is going away

121:51

from inclusive ism to exclusivism I have

121:54

always said that to my Muslim students

121:56

that are our grandfathers when they

121:59

stood in line a prayer in Mecca or poem

122:02

or Damascus were more open to

122:04

Christianity than their grandchildren or

122:06

preying on the line of prayer right now

122:07

and the same is true of Christianity and

122:10

the same is true of Hinduism we never

122:11

had Hindu fundamentalism in the 18th

122:14

century Latin is a modern phenomenon the

122:16

BJP is didn't existed in term of Gandhi

122:19

Mahatma Gandhi

122:20

these are all modern things and this is

122:22

a phenomenon that is taking place in all

122:24

religions and one of the great

122:26

challenges to those who believe they

122:29

have a call to make friendship between

122:31

religions

122:32

is precisely not to confront not only

122:34

those who are in other reason to

122:36

understand and look within their own

122:37

religion I just said I've been at the

122:39

front line of this battle for 50 years

122:41

over 50 years the end of my life now but

122:44

this is one of the most crucial and

122:45

important

122:46

issues of our day I've always said that

122:49

the only new thing under the Sun if you

122:51

can record Aristotle is the polarity of

122:54

religion and the experience have many

122:56

people in the modern world other words

122:59

there's nothing new Under the Sun in the

123:00

metaphysical sense a metaphysical

123:02

there's nothing understand Aristotle

123:04

said well Swami ji since you spent a

123:09

substantial amount of your time training

123:14

yourself in diminishing the impact of

123:18

external sound you could you could give

123:22

us a tip for the next three minutes of

123:25

meditation and silence that we're about

123:27

to engage in very very big demand to say

123:33

what to do with the next three minutes

123:34

of silence so I'll only say that let us

123:38

each in turn to silence in our own way

123:40

and do that which is which has become

123:43

most spiritually natural natural in the

123:46

sense of disciplined natural that which

123:48

has become a natural discipline to us

123:50

whether it is prayer whether it's prayer

123:53

whether it's focusing whether it's

123:55

mindfulness to experience silence each

123:58

in our own way and I'll just add one

124:00

other thing because it just came to mind

124:02

a non-sequitur but it's often thought

124:06

that Christians Jews Muslims they pray

124:11

Hindus and Buddhists there they meditate

124:13

I know that's not true Christians Jews

124:18

and Muslims have their oh they're their

124:20

own forms of meditation and in Hinduism

124:22

and Buddhism prayer even in Buddhism

124:24

where there's not the idea where there's

124:26

not the idea of a God there is prayer as

124:29

part of the Bodhisattvas path is prayer

124:31

and worship and in Hinduism prayer is

124:33

extremely important and it's one of the

124:35

best ways to learn to meditate so

124:37

whether now in the next three minutes of

124:39

silence you pray whether you focus the

124:41

mind whether you try to seek the source

124:44

of your being or whatever it is that you

124:46

do let us use the silence to

124:51

welcome to the real world

125:19

you